To: Spike
From: Wesley

Hello, Spike!

Since our last writing I've had several eureka moments. I'm looking 
forward to sharing them with you.

To begin with - I dug up some of my old Watcher books and found a 
reference to a Sophie Cartensen, who was the Slayer in 1940 - I'm 
having a hard time finding the exact dates of her tenure, but she was at
least alive then.  Her Watcher's name was Yanna Narvik.  I give you these
names so that you might try to track them down in Rupert's records,
because my own are, of course, incomplete.

Sophie's record stands out to me because in her Watcher Diary, Yanna makes
mention of the fact that Sophie was conflicted during her battles on the
front lines of the war.  Some history - the Council sent Sophie to France
prior to the German occupation, under the theory that there would be many
vampires in the area attempting to scavange the dying war victims.  The
Council's belief was that this was the ideal location for the Slayer to
be, since it would be a bit like shooting fish in a barrel.

Sophie did, in fact, do this, but reported to her Watcher that she worried
she hadn't been as fast in killing some of the vampires as she would have
liked.  Specifically, that when she saw vampires killing German soldiers,
she perhaps unconsciously did not stake them as quickly as she could
because of her own dislike of the Germans.

This would be a most decided red flag for any Watcher regarding 
potential trouble with a Slayer.  The Council's feelings about the war
aside, if Sophie succumbed to these feelings in any greater significant
manner the potential existed for her to lose sight of the overall goal and
perhaps turn Rogue.

I'll see if I can find more, but that should at least give you something
to go on when you look into Rupert's library.  Also be aware that Yanna
was apparently another admirer of yours.  She mentions dreaming about you
in her diary.  I think she even met you once, prior to 1940, but cannot
say for certain as it's only hinted at in verb tense.

> Could when I was there last. But I didn't bother as much with food when
> the blood list was more varied.

Caritas serves blood, for what it is worth.

> So yeah, avoiding the four star places, probably a good move. Though pet
> -- if you'd care for it, the three of us could certainly scrape together
> enough cash for *you* to eat, and Angel and I to have a drink or two. 

Oh no, but thank you.  I've had my fill with Los Angeles high society.

> > > That was a two part question, pet. Where does she live? Buffy said
> > > something about jail. Which jail? And who else? 
> > 
> > I believe she's in Fulsom Prison, but I'm honestly not sure. I've
> > never cared to ask.  And - er - demons, here and there.
> 
> Shit. Can't kill Faith yet. Buffy wants to talk to her.

Why?

> Any of the demons still breathing? 'Cause we can fix that.

Er - most are dead.

> > No. Just questioning the physics.
> 
> We're *dead*, pet.

I'm not!  The question of friction alone....

> *None* of the physics makes sense. least of all what happens to our
> clothes when we get staked. Been wondering about that one for *years.* 

The Council's theory is that there is a great deal of energy released when
a vampire is staked through the heart which then carries over to whatever
clothes or material items are in its possession and breaks them down on a
mollecular level.

> > I wouldn't know.  And the usual.
> 
> The usual? I've seen you in two outfits, pet, some kind of sweater and
> chinos under Angel's coat, and the lovely leather get up. Which? 

Oh.  Er - light grey sweater and matching slacks at the time, leather coat
a bit later.

> > Not that she would ever believe that, coming from me.
> 
> Doubt she'd believe it coming from me either. Maybe from Giles. Or...
> maybe this Host guy. He's got the red line to the powers, right? 

Not a direct line, but you are right in that he may be of help. If she is
worried it could be of use to her to sing and ask what he saw in her
future.

> > It does not take a genius to surmise that Angelus isn't as far away as
> > everyone believes him to be.  Angel included, although I wonder if he
> > harbors those delusions anymore.
> 
> Hard to say. He was havin' a tense problem with "like -- liked -- like"
> about torture and all that. But -- he asked me to kill him if Angelus
> ever comes back. And I promised. Fuck. I didn't want to,  so long as he
> left you and Buffy alone. But he said he'd find someone else if I didn't
> -- and if it has to be someone, I'd rather it be me. 

I'm ready to kill him if I have to. But I"m also cognizant of the fact
that I'm mortal.

> But again -- that would be the moral thing. Not the babies per se,
> which could just be a cultural taboo, but, well, *I'm* not eating the
> babies. The idea that I should be steppin' in to save babies of people I
> don't know, that's the moral thing, right? I'm sorry if I'm sounding
> really stupid here, but I really do need to narrow it down, and it may
> be obvious to you, but it's not to me. 

Not at all!  Spike - please remember that this, too, is an area I am
familiar with.  I am highly versed in different cultures, both demonic and
human (mostly demonic) and therefore understand that, in fact, this is
entirely new and alien to you.  Please never apologize for "sounding
stupid".  I'd much rather you ask.  I'm happy to answer.

Now then, *to* answer, we come to my second eureka moment of how I 
might be able to explain this to you.  But I'll get to that in a moment,
to answer another of your questions. For now I'll say that yes, it is part
of the moral thing to not feed other people's babies to trolls.

> Yeah, I could. The troll doesn't count for the chip. Demons are okay
> too. If I could, then I have to? Is that the rule? I don't remember it
> like that, from when I was human. Seems like no one would ever get any
> of they're own shit done. 

But this is just the point!  And here we are - eureka - consider it like a
barter system.  The human animal is unable, on its own, to do everything
it can for itself up to and including protect itself from danger.  Perhaps
if it had to it could, but for the most part it can not.  Particularly if
it would care to live a long life and enjoy such things as computers,
movies, art, and so on.

The human animal then bands together herd-like in order to combine 
resources.  One provides hunting skills, another medical, another 
cooking, and so on.  Each gives a strength, so that another might make up
for a weakness.

Now you, of course, are not human, but you have been knocked down a 
peg.  Your chip has made it hard for you to do everything that you need -
 particularly protect yourself from human attacks.  Therefore, while you
did not need this before, you *do* need to band together with others in
order to ensure your own survival.  

And part of *that* process is to do good for those you haven't even met
yet, because there is an understanding that others would do so for you if
they could.

There. Does that begin to make sense?

> True. Buffy seems to think if I do it for her, then it doesn't count.
> But if you don't mind... then I'd be pleased to help someone for you.
> Any preferences? 

My immediate thought is for you to offer your assistance the next time
Cordelia has a vision. While you're here, of course.  If you stayed long
enough she'd be bound to have one.

> I don't really think of him as my grandfather. More as my father. Dru
> and I were the kids, and Darla and Angel were the parents. But yeah. It
> would be good if he could guide me. But I think I tripped all his
> circuits in my last email -- he may be out of commission for a while on
> sentences that have the words Spike and Help in them. 

Why? What's wrong?

> Buffy who thinks the only way to be a good vampire is to be like Angel.
> And I don't even know if she still does. But I can't forget that she
> did. 

Ah, yes, I can understand that.  Difficult, considering that her idea of
what he was like and the reality of what he *is* like are two separate
entities.

> > > Um, do you read Old Roumanian? Cause I sure don't.
> > 
> > Not fluently but it can't be any harder than the other languages I
> > know.
> 
> Keep forgettin' what a little Swiss Army Knife of Knowledge you are. On
> its way, then.

What a curious image.  And I enjoy languages.  It's a pleasure to 
discover a new one.

> > All right.  So Angelus did not like Buffy, but was, we can all agree,
> > obsessed with her and perhaps in love.  Much like Darla, really, yes?
> 
> Maybe. He seemed to like Darla well enough back in the old days, and I
> have only had the highlights of her recent revival. 

Are there some details I could attempt to fill in?  I confess I don't know
as much as Angel does. There have been some things he's been decidedly
silent about.  Which, considering what he *has* spoken of, is a bit
worrying.

> Angelus wanted to hurt Buffy, as he had hurt Dru. 

He wanted to drive Buffy insane?

> > But you are saying that - and I understand this is no guarantee,
> > particularly since you weren't there - that the possibility exists
> > that Angelus liked myself and Cordelia?  Because he didn't become
> > overly physical in his actions?
> 
> Yes. That's what I'm sayin'. Got no idea if its true. but -- Angel said
> he'd lose his soul on purpose to protect you.

He said WHAT?

> Kind of indicates he thinks he'd still want to, wouldn't you say? Or was
> that just him bein' romantic? 

Or being an absolute thicko.  I'm going to have to speak with him.  

> > No... that couldn't make sense.  Cordy is Angel's source of
> > redemption.  Angelus would *hate* her for that, would he not?  And I -
> > I must have been hardly an entity to him.  
> 
> I don't know. I wasn't there. He might hate Cordelia, or he might find
> the whole thing amusing. He's used to Dru's second sight, so the vision
> thing isn't strange.

But Cordy's visions are for the specific purpose of helping Angel to reach
his destiny and Shanshu.  If Angelus didn't care for the idea of becoming
human, I would think she would be his first victim.

On the other hand when Doyle died the visions passed to Cordy. He 
might keep her alive just to know he had the source of the problem 
under control.

> And ... Angelus always had an eye for a pretty boy, pet. And you're
> about as pretty as they come. 

I... see.  I - I don't think that was his interest, however.

> I'll do my best, pet. Did he tell you about the evil doers thing? He
> said he would.

He did, thank you.

> Um, pet, most people who have recieved nasty abdominal wounds in the
> course of events consider them worthy of mention. 

I guess I somehow thought you knew.  I don't know why I would have 
thought that, considering there's no way you could have found out about
it.

> P.S. More requirements for me, pet? Or shall I revert to general
> pleading?

I can't think of any at the moment, I'm afraid.  General pleading.

Wesley

***

To: Angel
From: Spike
> > Are 
> > you just gonna keep asking "Why?" like a two year old that doesn't want 
> > to go to bed? Do I need a reason? Can't you take it as a fact? 
> 
>No, I can't take it as fact. It's not. You don't. I've met you before, Spike. I 
>know you don't. You never liked me. 

It bloody well is and I bloody well do, and how schoolyard is that?

Okay. Let me start over yet again. Like and love, not the same deal. Like -- 
variable, like weather. Love -- steady, like climate. Okay so far with the
 similes? Vague connection to rain notwithstanding, its got nothin' to do with
 umbrellas.  No, most of the time I didn't like you. Most of the time I still 
don't. Except when I do in spite of myself. Which happens more than you'd think, 
more than you evidently do think. But it tends to irritate me to the point where 
the last thing I feel like doin' is sayin' so. Besides, I've met you before too. 
The last fucking thing I was gonna do was admit to likin' you, let alone lovin' 
you, when the next thing you'd do is turn it into a knife to stick me with and 
then lecture me about it while I squirmed. You respect strength, you respect 
independence, if I can't manage that I can at least get sulky and rebellious. 
Better than nothing. But I *do* love you. Whether I happen to be liking you at 
that moment or not. And fuck if I know why I'm tryin' to convince you of 

And yeah, the you met me before thing is giving me trouble too. This is the king 
of the I Know Your Weakness And Will Use It Against You people, right? This is 
*why* I assumed that you knew all this shit a hundred years ago.  I didn't say 
so because I figured there was some value to keepin' up the act, not 'cause I 
ever expected you not to see through it. What the hell happened to your 
omniscience. At the cleaners?

> > My turn for the whys. Why are you having so much trouble with this 
> > concept? "My place is at your feet" gets a "damned straight" but "let 
> > me help you" gets an identity crisis? As you said, the hell? I want to 
> > serve you, Angel. I thought we went through this. 
> 
>It's not the same as liking. I could make anybody serve me. Doesn't 
>mean they'll like it. 

Can't decide if that's the biggest fuckin' ego since King Kong or the worst 
insecurity I've ever seen, there. Or both. Doubt even you could make *anybody* 
serve you -- at least, not while they were still in any shape to do much. But 
speakin' as one of the privileged few, at least *some* of us like it.  Besides, 
what the fuck do you care if I like it? Just let me do it again. Thing is, its 
not much of a service to run around like a poofter carryin' bags or offerin' 
blowjobs, when there is real stuff that you need, that I can do. Not that I've 
got any objection to bags or blowjobs.

> > > No. I don't get this. You don't even *like* me. You *shouldn't* like me. 
> > > Why do you want to help me? 
> > 
> > No, you won't bear it in mind, or just no, it's not clearer now? 
> 
>No, it's not clearer now. 

How can I make it clearer? I'm tryin' here, Angel, but I feel a bit like I'm not 
only explainin' that water is wet, I'm explainin' it to the person who first 
threw me in the lake. 

> > And 
> > why shouldn't I like you? 
>Because you *don't*. 

That. Makes. No. Sense. The whole point of havin' a word like shouldn't is that 
it's *not* a word like don't. I *don't* like Xander. I *shouldn't* put 
mousetraps in his comic collection. I *don't*  believe we're having this 
conversation. I *shouldn't* have started it. 

Not to mention, you already said -- just the previous sentence -- that I don't 
like you. And you're a notorious man of few and broody words. So if you bothered 
to make a subject verb sandwich out of shouldn't, you meant somethin' by it. 
What the fuck was it?

> > I get why you shouldn't like me. You're good. 
> > I'm not. 
>Not the point. 

For the love of God, Angel, what *is* the point?

> > Most of the reasons I hated you have 
> > had, oh, a ton of new information dumped into the mix in these last 
> > couple letters of yours. I'm gonna need a little time to process. 
>What information? 

Hello, have you been here for this conversation at all? Is this a recording? Why 
you left us, Angel. Why you wouldn't let us help you. Why you acted like you 
didn't know me in Sunnydale. You know, information. The stuff you've been giving 
me, along with constant aching erections.

> > > I've changed. You love that? 
> > 
> > You've changed? You don't say! I *have* been paying attention for the 
> > last hundred pages, you know. Not to mention the hundred years. 
> 
>You didn't see me for a hundred years. 

Right. 

> > And you're *talking* to me like this, which never would have 
> > happened in the old days. 
>Read that. Memorize it. 

Don't need to. Wrote it. Know it. Lived it. So? 

> > > No. Dead. If you won't do it, I'll find somebody else. 
> > 
> > All RIGHT, Angel. I promise. It's just -- gonna hurt, you know? 'Cause 
> > it may be love me, love my soul, now, but it was just plain love me 
> > first. 
>Angelus needs to die. He comes back, I want him dead. 

Angelus doesn't need to die. Angel and Angelus need to get their bleedin' acts 
together. This is a fuckin' committee, not a timeshare. But -- I said I would, 
dammit. I will, if only so Wesley and Buffy don't have to. Now shut up and let 
me grieve. 

> > I do. I can't say trust me, 'cause you've got no reason to. But still. 
> > I *saw* Dru run to you when she was afraid. There was a monster, yeah. 
> > But that's not all there was. 
>It's *most* of what there was. And it's most of what you liked, boyo. 

Know that. Pretty nice monster you've got there, too. Matches the one I've got 
real good. Can they get together to play? Also know its easier to let him out to 
play than think about what else there is. Now that I can't do one, I've started 
doing a damned sight more of the other.

> > Then think about this one. How come Angelus didn't try to kill Wesley 
> > when they met?   
>I don't know. 

 I don't either. I can make some guesses, though. But I'd rather hear yours.

> > Wish you had? 
> 
>Wish I hadn't hurt them all so bad, but don't regret all I did. Even fucking 
>Darla. Stupid, still needed to be done. 

Fucking Darla never needs to be done. But I know what you mean. And if it ended 
up with Wesley, it's a hard thing to regret.

>Wasn't. Joking, I mean. 

Good.  At least you give those muscles a stretch once in a while.

--Spike

***

To: Wesley
From: Spike

Hello Wesley -- 

Many thanks for the references. I'll look them up at Giles', or get Dawn to -- 
I'm still persona not entirely grata at the magic shop. This Sophie bird sounds 
like the sort I need to know about.

Yanna met me? Yanna dreamt about me? Don't suppose you know what she looked 
like, offhand? Having trouble remembering a Watcher from around then, though I 
suppose she might not have given me her calling card, under the circs.

>Caritas serves blood, for what it is worth. 

Thanks. Though I'm fine with whiskey too.

> > Shit. Can't kill Faith yet. Buffy wants to talk to her. 
> 
>Why? 

I think, to find out why she did what she did. Or at least what the early 
warning signs are. Or maybe just to say she understands it better now. Or to 
reassure herself that she's not Faith. Or all of the above. Buffy's not much for 
the fearless self-examination.

 > > Any of the demons still breathing? 'Cause we can fix that.  
>Er - most are dead. 

Any that aren't, just give the word and they will be.

> > > No. Just questioning the physics. 
> > 
> > We're *dead*, pet. 
> 
>I'm not! The question of friction alone.... 

[grin] true. But there's quite a lot of skin on the human body. If you alternate 
spots, you can keep things going for quite a bit longer than four hours. And the 
most unlikely places become sensitized.

>The Council's theory is that there is a great deal of energy released 
>when a vampire is staked through the heart which then carries over to 
>whatever clothes or material items are in its possession and breaks 
>them down on a mollecular level. 

Makes as much sense as anything else.

> > > Not that she would ever believe that, coming from me. 
> > 
> > Doubt she'd believe it coming from me either. Maybe from Giles. Or... 
> > maybe this Host guy. He's got the red line to the powers, right? 
> 
>Not a direct line, but you are right in that he may be of help. If she is 
>worried it could be of use to her to sing and ask what he saw in her 
>future. 

Maybe when we're down to see Faith. Don't know when that will be yet. 

> > > It does not take a genius to surmise that Angelus isn't as far away as 
> > > everyone believes him to be. Angel included, although I wonder if he 
> > > harbors those delusions anymore. 
> > 
> > Hard to say. He was havin' a tense problem with "like -- liked -- like" 
> > about torture and all that. But -- he asked me to kill him if Angelus 
> > ever comes back. And I promised. Fuck. I didn't want to, so long as he 
> > left you and Buffy alone. But he said he'd find someone else if I 
> > didn't -- and if it has to be someone, I'd rather it be me. 
> 
>I'm ready to kill him if I have to. But I"m also cognizant of the fact that 
>I'm mortal. 

There's that. And -- part of the point of me doin' it, pet, is so you and Buffy 
don't have to.  Doesn't mean you should wait for me if the opportunity presents 
itself. But if it doesn't -- let me do the hunting.

>Not at all! Spike - please remember that this, too, is an area I am 
>familiar with. I am highly versed in different cultures, both demonic and 
>human (mostly demonic) and therefore understand that, in fact, this is 
>entirely new and alien to you. Please never apologize for "sounding 
>stupid". I'd much rather you ask. I'm happy to answer. 

Thank you, pet.

>Now then, *to* answer, we come to my second eureka moment of how I 
>might be able to explain this to you. But I'll get to that in a moment, to 
>answer another of your questions. For now I'll say that yes, it is part of 
>the moral thing to not feed other people's babies to trolls. 

Figured as much.

> > Yeah, I could. The troll doesn't count for the chip. Demons are okay 
> > too. If I could, then I have to? Is that the rule? I don't remember it 
> > like that, from when I was human. Seems like no one would ever get any 
> > of they're own shit done. 
> 
>But this is just the point! And here we are - eureka - consider it like a 
>barter system. The human animal is unable, on its own, to do 
>everything it can for itself up to and including protect itself from danger. 
>Perhaps if it had to it could, but for the most part it can not. Particularly 
>if it would care to live a long life and enjoy such things as computers, 
>movies, art, and so on. 
> 
>The human animal then bands together herd-like in order to combine 
>resources. One provides hunting skills, another medical, another 
>cooking, and so on. Each gives a strength, so that another might make 
>up for a weakness. 
> 
>Now you, of course, are not human, but you have been knocked down a 
>peg. Your chip has made it hard for you to do everything that you need - 
> particularly protect yourself from human attacks. Therefore, while you 
>did not need this before, you *do* need to band together with others in 
>order to ensure your own survival. 

I've got this so far. Makes a lot of sense, even. Like the little set up me 'n' 
the scoobies have got here. We specialize.

>And part of *that* process is to do good for those you haven't even met 
>yet, because there is an understanding that others would do so for you 
>if they could. 

This is the part where you lose me again. Because -- pet, do you an' me know the 
same humans? Seems like there's a whole hell of a lot of 'em wouldn't cross the 
street to save their *own* babies from a troll. So if I help them, on the 
understanding that they would help me if they could, aren't I pretty well 
playin' myself for a sucker? Not to mention, even with the chip, I can help them 
a hell of a lot more, and a hell of lot more often, than they can help me. 
Doesn't seem fair.

> > True. Buffy seems to think if I do it for her, then it doesn't count. 
> > But if you don't mind... then I'd be pleased to help someone for you. 
> > Any preferences? 
> 
>My immediate thought is for you to offer your assistance the next time 
>Cordelia has a vision. While you're here, of course. If you stayed long 
>enough she'd be bound to have one. 

I can do that.  

> > I don't really think of him as my grandfather. More as my father. Dru 
> > and I were the kids, and Darla and Angel were the parents. But yeah. It 
> > would be good if he could guide me. But I think I tripped all his 
> > circuits in my last email -- he may be out of commission for a while on 
> > sentences that have the words Spike and Help in them. 

>Why? What's wrong? 

I offered to.  

Sorry, pet. Didn't mean to go all terse and cryptic. It's just -- this is 
complicated. Way more complicated than I thought it would be. Made a bit of a 
confession, thought I'd get back either disgust or ridicule. Maybe both. Wasn't 
prepared for simple stubborn denial. Don't know how to get through it. Still 
don't know why I want to. Not quite ready to talk about this yet. And -- figure 
its only right he should tell you his side first.

>Ah, yes, I can understand that. Difficult, considering that her idea of 
>what he was like and the reality of what he *is* like are two separate 
>entities. 

Yeah. Its strange. Some ways she knows him so well, others not at all. Then 
again, I guess the same is true for me.

>What a curious image. And I enjoy languages. It's a pleasure to 
>discover a new one. 

Glad to provide you with a challenge, then.

>Are there some details I could attempt to fill in? I confess I don't know 
>as much as Angel does. There have been some things he's been 
>decidedly silent about. Which, considering what he *has* spoken of, is 
>a bit worrying. 

If you like. If you think it'll help. He did cover the basics, though. Just not 
a lot about stuff like emotional state. 

> > Angelus wanted to hurt Buffy, as he had hurt Dru. 
> 
>He wanted to drive Buffy insane? 

I don't know, actually. But he did a lot of artistic prancing 'round the point. 
Sneaking into her place to draw her while she slept. And her friends. And 
leaving them the pictures. Killed Red's goldfish. Killed Giles' girlfriend. Fuck 
knows what he thought he was doing, but it had a lot more to do with makin' the 
Slayer suffer than takin' her out of the picture. Said she made him feel human, 
and that wasn't somethin' you just forgive. It was Dru who said he wanted to 
hurt Buffy like he'd hurt her. But he more or less agreed, and anyway Dru is 
nearly always right, once you work out what the bleedin' hell she's on about, by 
which point it's usually already happenned. Don't know where he was goin' with 
it when he got interrupted by the whole Acathla thing. Maybe he even planned to 
turn her too. But he never said. 

> > > But you are saying that - and I understand this is no guarantee, 
> > > particularly since you weren't there - that the possibility exists that 
> > > Angelus liked myself and Cordelia? Because he didn't become overly 
> > > physical in his actions? 
> > 
> > Yes. That's what I'm sayin'. Got no idea if its true. but -- Angel said 
> > he'd lose his soul on purpose to protect you. 
> 
>He said WHAT? 

Um. Yeah. In retrospect, probably wasn't quite the right bit of info to pass on 
to you. Made a lot more sense in context, really, pet. I was just makin' sure 
that he wasn't finding the whole vamp eyes thing too tempting on the blood lust 
scale, and he was sayin' no, 'cause he wasn't thinkin' eat you, he was thinkin' 
protect you. And then the line you saw. If he had to. It wasn't a plan or 
anything.

> > Kind of indicates he thinks he'd still want to, wouldn't you say? Or was 
> > that just him bein' romantic? 
> 
>Or being an absolute thicko. I'm going to have to speak with him. 

If you have to, you have to. But I really wish you wouldn't. I'm in deep enough 
hot water with him right now as it is. And -- it doesn't seem so unreasonable to 
me, pet. If he's willing to die for you, why not that?

> > > No... that couldn't make sense. Cordy is Angel's source of redemption. 
> > > Angelus would *hate* her for that, would he not? And I - I must have 
> > > been hardly an entity to him. 
> > 
> > I don't know. I wasn't there. He might hate Cordelia, or he might find 
> > the whole thing amusing. He's used to Dru's second sight, so the vision 
> > thing isn't strange. 
> 
>But Cordy's visions are for the specific purpose of helping Angel to 
>reach his destiny and Shanshu. If Angelus didn't care for the idea of 
>becoming human, I would think she would be his first victim. 

I suppose. I don't know how seriously he'd take the threat, though. 

>On the other hand when Doyle died the visions passed to Cordy. He 
>might keep her alive just to know he had the source of the problem 
>under control. 

Might do. Might figure its safer in a human than another demon. Might just like 
the sight of her in pain. 

> > And ... Angelus always had an eye for a pretty boy, pet. And you're 
> > about as pretty as they come. 

>I... see. I - I don't think that was his interest, however. 

You'd know better than me. I wasn't there.

> > Um, pet, most people who have recieved nasty abdominal wounds in the 
> > course of events consider them worthy of mention. 
> 
>I guess I somehow thought you knew. I don't know why I would have 
>thought that, considering there's no way you could have found out about 
>it. 

From Angel, I could have. From Angel, I did. Just ... startled me, that you 
hadn't mentioned it. 

> > P.S. More requirements for me, pet? Or shall I revert to general pleading?   

>I can't think of any at the moment, I'm afraid. General pleading. 

Wesley, pet, nothing would give me greater pleasure than to beg you for anything 
-- unless its for you to beg me. But right now, with things are they are with 
Angel, I don't think I should even be asking for the right to touch him. Can we 
hold off a little?

yours,
Spike

***

To: Spike
From: Angel

> And yeah, the you met me before thing is giving me trouble too. This is
> the king of the I Know Your Weakness And Will Use It Against You people,
> right? This is *why* I assumed that you knew all this shit a hundred
> years ago.  I didn't say so because I figured there was some value to
> keepin' up the act, not 'cause I ever expected you not to see through
> it. What the hell happened to your omniscience. At the cleaners?

I knew - know - how to hurt you.  Doesn't mean I got caught up in the
motivations of it.  Cause and effect covers a lot of bases.

I'm not - trying, at least - to hurt you now. So you know.

> Besides, what the fuck do you care if I like it?

Because maybe I like you.

> That. Makes. No. Sense. The whole point of havin' a word like shouldn't
> is that it's *not* a word like don't. I *don't* like Xander. I
> *shouldn't* put mousetraps in his comic collection. I *don't*  believe
> we're having this conversation. I *shouldn't* have started it. 

Funny.

> Not to mention, you already said -- just the previous sentence -- that I
> don't like you. And you're a notorious man of few and broody words. So
> if you bothered to make a subject verb sandwich out of shouldn't, you
> meant somethin' by it. What the fuck was it?

What's it going to get you? I'm good, I'm bad, I'm broody, I'm not.  I'm
nobody you know or would probably even care to, Spike.  Little trips down
lawyer lane notwithstanding.

> > > I get why you shouldn't like me. You're good. 
> > > I'm not. 
> >Not the point. 
> 
> For the love of God, Angel, what *is* the point?

Just saying you being evil isn't a factor here. Not to me.

> > > Most of the reasons I hated you have 
> > > had, oh, a ton of new information dumped into the mix in these last
> > > couple letters of yours. I'm gonna need a little time to process. 
> >What information? 
> 
> Hello, have you been here for this conversation at all? Is this a
> recording?

Yeah, I have. LOTS of things have been said. Too much to ask for a 
narrow down?

> Why you left us, Angel. Why you wouldn't let us help you. Why
> you acted like you didn't know me in Sunnydale. You know, information. 

So. Process.  What's the result?

> > > And you're *talking* to me like this, which never would have 
> > > happened in the old days. 
> >Read that. Memorize it. 
> 
> Don't need to. Wrote it. Know it. Lived it. So? 

Angelus would break your fucking back, boy.  Think you'd even be 
HAVING this conversation with him?  Want your irony of the day? Here goes.
 Angelus wouldn't give a SHIT about you.  But *I* do.

> Angelus doesn't need to die. Angel and Angelus need to get their
> bleedin' acts together. This is a fuckin' committee, not a timeshare. 

I wonder.

> > > Then think about this one. How come Angelus didn't try to kill
> > > Wesley when they met?   
> >I don't know. 
> 
>  I don't either. I can make some guesses, though. But I'd rather hear
>  yours.

Told you - I don't know.

> Fucking Darla never needs to be done. But I know what you mean. And if
> it ended up with Wesley, it's a hard thing to regret.

Just waiting for her to find out I'm seeing him.  Christ.

A.

***

To: Spike
From: Wesley

> Many thanks for the references. I'll look them up at Giles', or get Dawn
> to -- I'm still persona not entirely grata at the magic shop. This
> Sophie bird sounds like the sort I need to know about.

I'll let you know if I find more. But I thought it better to share early
so you could begin your own research as well.

> Yanna met me? Yanna dreamt about me? Don't suppose you know what she
> looked like, offhand? Having trouble remembering a Watcher from around
> then, though I suppose she might not have given me her calling card,
> under the circs.

I haven't found a reference to her physical appearance yet - she not being
inclined to include that in her own diaries - but given her heritage I
would assume blond hair and blue eyes.  I'll let you know if I discover
otherwise.

And yes. Apparently she dreamed that you would kill her someday.  In a
rather macabre sort of way, I'm interested to find out if I have some sort
of record here to let me know if you did.  

> I think, to find out why she did what she did. Or at least what the
> early warning signs are. Or maybe just to say she understands it better
> now. Or to reassure herself that she's not Faith. Or all of the above.
> Buffy's not much for the fearless self-examination.

It makes as much sense as anything.  You could always ask Angel. He 
was more interested in the details of Faith's incarceration than I was.

>  > > Any of the demons still breathing? 'Cause we can fix that.  
> 
> >Er - most are dead. 
> 
> Any that aren't, just give the word and they will be.

Thank you.  I - I appreciate the offer.  But those who are still alive
might as well remain so.  Killing them wouldn't provide me with the
satisfaction that you might suspect.

> [grin] true. But there's quite a lot of skin on the human body. If you
> alternate spots, you can keep things going for quite a bit longer than
> four hours. And the most unlikely places become sensitized.

You'll laugh, but in moments like this I cannot help but think of the sort
of records I could make of this information.  Perhaps a book to accompany
the demonic erotica I mentioned earlier? (Joking)

> >The Council's theory is that there is a great deal of energy released
> >when a vampire is staked through the heart which then carries over to
> >whatever clothes or material items are in its possession and breaks
> >them down on a mollecular level. 
> 
> Makes as much sense as anything else.

Only problem is that this is very hard to test.  The Council's had spotty
luck at best with capturing vampires for research purposes.

> >I'm ready to kill him if I have to. But I"m also cognizant of the fact
> >that I'm mortal. 
> 
> There's that. And -- part of the point of me doin' it, pet, is so you
> and Buffy don't have to.  Doesn't mean you should wait for me if the
> opportunity presents itself. But if it doesn't -- let me do the hunting.

Thank you.  I can promise you that that was probably a weight off of his
mind.

> >And part of *that* process is to do good for those you haven't even met
> >yet, because there is an understanding that others would do so for you
> >if they could. 
> 
> This is the part where you lose me again. Because -- pet, do you an' me
> know the same humans? Seems like there's a whole hell of a lot of 'em
> wouldn't cross the street to save their *own* babies from a troll. So if
> I help them, on the understanding that they would help me if they could,
> aren't I pretty well playin' myself for a sucker? Not to mention, even
> with the chip, I can help them a hell of a lot more, and a hell of lot
> more often, than they can help me. Doesn't seem fair.

Turn your focus back upon the Scoobies, then - or me.  Earning 
goodwill with them would go far to get you what you'd like in life, would
it not?  So even though you would not care one way or another about the
parents of those babies, you *would* care what Buffy would say about it?
Or what she might say if she found out you did not assist Xander?

I think really your goal should be to start small and move outwards.  Get
comfortable with the Scoobies first, then worry about the world. After
all, it's not as though you haven't plenty of time to try to adjust to
this. May as well make use of it.

> >My immediate thought is for you to offer your assistance the next time
> >Cordelia has a vision. While you're here, of course. If you stayed long
> >enough she'd be bound to have one. 
> 
> I can do that.  

I'd be glad for the assistance.

> Sorry, pet. Didn't mean to go all terse and cryptic. It's just -- this
> is complicated. Way more complicated than I thought it would be. Made a
> bit of a confession, thought I'd get back either disgust or ridicule.
> Maybe both. Wasn't prepared for simple stubborn denial. Don't know how
> to get through it. Still don't know why I want to. Not quite ready to
> talk about this yet. And -- figure its only right he should tell you his
> side first.

I respect that.  I'm sorry things have suddenly become strained.  For what
it may be worth, he's only seemed tense and thoughtful, not angry in any
way that I can tell.  

> >What a curious image. And I enjoy languages. It's a pleasure to 
> >discover a new one. 
> 
> Glad to provide you with a challenge, then.

The challenge will not be the Romanian so much as attempting to figure out
the nuances of the curse.  From what little I know I can say it is a very
complicated spell.  Discovering such details as why it has the happiness
clause may take time.

> >Are there some details I could attempt to fill in? I confess I don't
> >know as much as Angel does. There have been some things he's been
> >decidedly silent about. Which, considering what he *has* spoken of, is
> >a bit worrying. 
> 
> If you like. If you think it'll help. He did cover the basics, though.
> Just not a lot about stuff like emotional state. 

I can help a bit with that, then.  Are there any times in particular you
are wondering about? Any events he told you of that you'd care for an
outsider's perspective on?

> I don't know, actually. But he did a lot of artistic prancing 'round the
> point. Sneaking into her place to draw her while she slept. And her
> friends. And leaving them the pictures. Killed Red's goldfish. Killed
> Giles' girlfriend. Fuck knows what he thought he was doing, but it had a
> lot more to do with makin' the Slayer suffer than takin' her out of the
> picture. Said she made him feel human, and that wasn't somethin' you
> just forgive. It was Dru who said he wanted to hurt Buffy like he'd hurt
> her.

Ah - this makes sense now.  He stalked Drusilla for quite some time as
well, with similar artistry.  

> But he more or less agreed, and anyway Dru is nearly always right, once
> you work out what the bleedin' hell she's on about, by which point it's
> usually already happenned. Don't know where he was goin' with it when he
> got interrupted by the whole Acathla thing. Maybe he even planned to
> turn her too. But he never said. 

One would have to imagine if nothing else Angelus would have been 
interested in drinking the blood of a Slayer, if he could.  Ironic, 
considering how Angel himself did just that a year later.

> >He said WHAT? 
> 
> Um. Yeah. In retrospect, probably wasn't quite the right bit of info to
> pass on to you. Made a lot more sense in context, really, pet. I was
> just makin' sure that he wasn't finding the whole vamp eyes thing too
> tempting on the blood lust scale, and he was sayin' no, 'cause he wasn't
> thinkin' eat you, he was thinkin' protect you. And then the line you
> saw. If he had to. It wasn't a plan or anything.

No - it's all right, Spike. I'm not angry - with you or with him.  Rather,
I'm not in the way that I think you think I am.  I know that Angel wasn't
saying he was *planning* on becoming Angelus or any such thing, just...

Angel has a difficult time understanding why he's needed.  As my lover, as
a part of Angel Investigations, everything.  For him to say this to you I
knew immediately that this was yet another instance of him assuming that
"Angel" was of little to no use to anyone.  

Hence my reaction - it is moments such as that which make me yearn 
to tear my hair out, wondering what it shall take to make him 
understand that he *is* useful, and necessary, and that Angelus is a part
of *him*.

> If you have to, you have to. But I really wish you wouldn't. I'm in deep
> enough hot water with him right now as it is. And -- it doesn't seem so
> unreasonable to me, pet. If he's willing to die for you, why not that?

I agree.  Which is to say I understand.  God knows I'd die for him in a
moment if it were necessary.  It is just... sometimes Angel believes the
only good he can do *is* dying.  I wish he would understand that he can
remain on earth and *still* be useful.

> >On the other hand when Doyle died the visions passed to Cordy. He might
> >keep her alive just to know he had the source of the problem under
> >control. 
> 
> Might do. Might figure its safer in a human than another demon. Might
> just like the sight of her in pain. 

Very good point.  I can see how that would appeal to him, based on 
what little I know.

> Wesley, pet, nothing would give me greater pleasure than to beg you for
> anything -- unless its for you to beg me. But right now, with things are
> they are with Angel, I don't think I should even be asking for the right
> to touch him. Can we hold off a little?

Of course.  And please do remember that I care for you.

Wesley

***

To: Angel
From: Spike

> I knew - know - how to hurt you.  Doesn't mean I got caught up in the
> motivations of it.  Cause and effect covers a lot of bases.

True. Never thought about it like that. You were so bloody *good* at it, I
figured you had to understand how it worked. Never deluded myself that you
cared, but I figured you knew. Guess you didn't. [shrug] Now you do.
Little extra ammunition never hurts.

> I'm not - trying, at least - to hurt you now. So you know.

Me neither, for whatever that's worth. And. um. thanks. Ever noticed I was
a lot better at this when at least once of us was? I know how to do that.
This? Anybody's bloody guess.

> > Besides, what the fuck do you care if I like it?
> 
> Because maybe I like you.

You *what*? What the hell would you go and do something stupid like that
for? You had a perfectly good power imbalance here. Enough material to
make me cringe for years. Me beggin' to help you and all.

> > That. Makes. No. Sense. The whole point of havin' a word like
> > shouldn't is that it's *not* a word like don't. I *don't* like Xander.
> > I *shouldn't* put mousetraps in his comic collection. I *don't* 
> > believe we're having this conversation. I *shouldn't* have started it.
> > 
> 
> Funny.

One does one's humble best.

> > Not to mention, you already said -- just the previous sentence -- that
> > I don't like you. And you're a notorious man of few and broody words.
> > So if you bothered to make a subject verb sandwich out of shouldn't,
> > you meant somethin' by it. What the fuck was it?
> 
> What's it going to get you? I'm good, I'm bad, I'm broody, I'm not.  I'm
> nobody you know or would probably even care to, Spike.  Little trips
> down lawyer lane notwithstanding.

Maybe I don't. Maybe I never did. But I do want to. Again -- let me try?

> > > > I get why you shouldn't like me. You're good. 
> > > > I'm not. 
> > >Not the point. 
> > 
> > For the love of God, Angel, what *is* the point?
> 
> Just saying you being evil isn't a factor here. Not to me.

Why do I feel like we've switched roles here? Why *not*? Didn't you try to
kill the rest of our, what did Wesley call it, unique family unit for
that? Aren't you supposed to be all repulsed and stuff?

> > > > Most of the reasons I hated you have 
> > > > had, oh, a ton of new information dumped into the mix in these
> > > > last couple letters of yours. I'm gonna need a little time to
> > > > process. 
> > >What information? 
> > 
> > Hello, have you been here for this conversation at all? Is this a
> > recording?
> 
> Yeah, I have. LOTS of things have been said. Too much to ask for a
> narrow down?

No. Not too much. Sorry. I've been livin' with what I thought was obvious
so long, I keep forgettin' you really *don't* know what I'm thinking.

> > Why you left us, Angel. Why you wouldn't let us help you. Why
> > you acted like you didn't know me in Sunnydale. You know, information.
> > 
> 
> So. Process.  What's the result?

Hurts less that you didn't call for me, you bein' insane with pain at the
time and not knowin' I would've come. Hurts pretty much the same that you
forgot us, but what the hell. Not like we didn't know you were a wee bit
self-absorbed at the best of times. That you thought I would have played
on your pain -- from Angelus, that's a compliment. That you *never knew*
how I felt about you, all that time -- makes me feel a right bloomin'
idiot, but I can't find a way to twist it so it comes out your fault, much
as I'd like to. And it was probably a blessing, all things considered. 

Got the feeling you've got a grudge against yourself for how you treated
me when we *were* together, but I don't. Never have. Don't see any reason
to start now. The way you acted in Sunnydale -- well, fuck. Still don't
consider you the ideal nursemaid, I can tell you that much. But I did beat
you about the head with a poker, steal Dru back, and get you sent to hell,
so I figure we're pretty much quits there. What the hell. We're pretty
much quits everywhere, as far as I'm concerned. What about you? If you've
got a list of greivances *besides* general smartass annoyance, now's the
time to ask.

> > > > And you're *talking* to me like this, which never would have
> > > > happened in the old days. 
> > >Read that. Memorize it. 
> > 
> > Don't need to. Wrote it. Know it. Lived it. So? 

> Angelus would break your fucking back, boy.  Think you'd even be 
> HAVING this conversation with him?  Want your irony of the day? Here
> goes.  Angelus wouldn't give a SHIT about you.  But *I* do.

And again, why? I said this to Wesley, I never thought I'd have to say it
to you. But -- you don't have to like me. I'll still like you. I'll still
touch you, if you'll let me. I'll still serve you. I'll still help you.
(And no, I did not say either of those last two to Wesley. Don't think
he's there yet. Though he did express some interest in chaining me up, one
of these days.) Don't talk yourself into this to be fair. Because fairness
doesn't mean shit to me.

As for the rest - no, of course I fucking wouldn't. Angelus would have
taken the first offer, and probably slapped me around a bit for not
offering faster and more deferential-like. Angelus never would have asked
why, and I wasn't about to volunteer it, so he never would have fucking
*known* that I loved him -- but I would have gone on thinking he did, and
he would have gone on letting me think he knew everything. Angelus never
did give a shit about me, and yeah, he probably would break my back. So
what. He is -- was -- allowed.

> > Angelus doesn't need to die. Angel and Angelus need to get their
> > bleedin' acts together. This is a fuckin' committee, not a timeshare. 
> 
> I wonder.

Huh? Look, you're both in there. You know that, right? Can't you get on
the same page? You've got half your energy goin' fighting yourself instead
of the enemy -- or runnin' away. That can't be right. Especially not when
the enemy's Angelus. We both know how much he loved that smell of fear.
And for fuck's sake, if I make that little speech one more time I'm goin'
to take a vow of silence. Do you an' the Slayer share a brain or
something?

> > > > Then think about this one. How come Angelus didn't try to kill
> > > > Wesley when they met?   
> > >I don't know. 

Because he liked him? Because he wanted to protect him? Because he thought
he was cute? Because he wanted to torture him slowly and creatively? Can't
you *ask?* I mean, I don't exactly know how the curse thing works -- I
spent most of my time either starin' at a wall or runnin' around in a top
hat lookin' like a soddin' freak show -- but if you remember everything
that happened with me, don't you remember everything that happened with
him?

> > Fucking Darla never needs to be done. But I know what you mean. And if
> > it ended up with Wesley, it's a hard thing to regret.
> 
> Just waiting for her to find out I'm seeing him.  Christ.

Think she's gonna come after him? Maybe its time for a little preventative
stakeage.

--Spike

***

To: Spike
From: Angel

> > I knew - know - how to hurt you.  Doesn't mean I got caught up in the
> > motivations of it.  Cause and effect covers a lot of bases.
> 
> True. Never thought about it like that. You were so bloody *good* at it,
> I figured you had to understand how it worked. 

Probably could have, if I cared enough to think about it.

> > > Besides, what the fuck do you care if I like it?
> > 
> > Because maybe I like you.
> 
> You *what*? What the hell would you go and do something stupid like that
> for? You had a perfectly good power imbalance here. Enough material to
> make me cringe for years. Me beggin' to help you and all. 

I know.

> > What's it going to get you? I'm good, I'm bad, I'm broody, I'm not. 
> > I'm nobody you know or would probably even care to, Spike.  Little
> > trips down lawyer lane notwithstanding.
> 
> Maybe I don't. Maybe I never did. But I do want to. Again -- let me try?

Maybe.

> > Just saying you being evil isn't a factor here. Not to me.
> 
> Why do I feel like we've switched roles here? Why *not*? Didn't you try
> to kill the rest of our, what did Wesley call it, unique family unit for
> that? Aren't you supposed to be all repulsed and stuff? 

Probably.

'course Dru and Darla were trying to kill most of Los Angeles *and* turn
me evil again.  Might have something to do with it.  That on your agenda? 
If not, then I don't care.

> > Yeah, I have. LOTS of things have been said. Too much to ask for a
> > narrow down?
> 
> No. Not too much. Sorry. I've been livin' with what I thought was
> obvious so long, I keep forgettin' you really *don't* know what I'm
> thinking. 

I really don't. No insult, just truth.  Hell - you know what *I'm*
thinking? Didn't think so.

> Hurts less that you didn't call for me, you bein' insane with pain at
> the time and not knowin' I would've come.

I was. And I didn't.

> Hurts pretty much the same
> that you forgot us, but what the hell. Not like we didn't know you were
> a wee bit self-absorbed at the best of times.

What was I supposed to do?  Got my whole fucking life replaying in my
head, everything hurts - not like I got a *choice* in what I get to think
about.  Been *easier* if I had a choice.

> That you thought I would
> have played on your pain -- from Angelus, that's a compliment. 

Figured you'd at least learned that much by then, all the times I fucking
beat it into you.

> That you
> *never knew* how I felt about you, all that time -- makes me feel a
> right bloomin' idiot, but I can't find a way to twist it so it comes out
> your fault, much as I'd like to. And it was probably a blessing, all
> things considered. 

Probably.

> Got the feeling you've got a grudge against yourself for how you
> treated me when we *were* together, but I don't. 

Got a grudge against everything Angelus did. He fucked me over.  Not
overly fond of him.

> But I did beat you about the head with a poker, steal Dru back, and get
> you sent to hell, so I figure we're pretty much quits there.

Hundred years in Hell for stealing my daughter away from you?  Ok.  

> What the
> hell. We're pretty much quits everywhere, as far as I'm concerned. What
> about you? If you've got a list of greivances *besides* general smartass
> annoyance, now's the time to ask. 

No. Thanks.

> And again, why? I said this to Wesley, I never thought I'd have to say
> it to you. But -- you don't have to like me. I'll still like you. I'll
> still touch you, if you'll let me. I'll still serve you. I'll still help
> you. (And no, I did not say either of those last two to Wesley. Don't
> think he's there yet. Though he did express some interest in chaining me
> up, one of these days.) Don't talk yourself into this to be fair.
> Because fairness doesn't mean shit to me. 

Think it means shit to me?  I'm not trying to be fair, I don't give a
*shit* about fair as far as this little fucked-up little family is
concerned 'cause if I *did* Darla and I would be having a LOT more to
fight about believe you me.  

You wanna fuck me, boy?  No problem. But *separate issue*.  We 
*both* know that.  But just so's we're clear - yeah, I *like* smacking you
around and making you beg and making you say please and da and promise
you'll do anything I tell ya to.  I'm looking *forward* to locking you in
the hotel for a day while you find out just what your da has cooked up for
you now that life has changed.

But SEPARATE ISSUE.  Separate issue from you, here, saying to me 
that you'dve *helped* me if you could because NOBODY helped me.  
Nobody knew I NEEDED help.  Nobody even GUESSED.  And the 
LAST person I fucking expected this from was YOU 'cause you had 
EVERY reason to hate me.

So no. No I DON'T understand because it makes no fucking SENSE, 
boy.  You spent your whole life getting the fuck away from the thing that
this soul has made me become - a pasy-ass fucking HUMAN with FEELINGS. 
And I don't even get this thing that I *am* let alone understand why you
of all fucking people would tell me you LOVE it.  You knew me *then*.  How
the FUCK do you care about me now?

> As for the rest - no, of course I fucking wouldn't. Angelus would have
> taken the first offer, and probably slapped me around a bit for not
> offering faster and more deferential-like.

I know exactly what he would've done to you. I know exactly what he'd do
to you now.  Got it right here, in my head, ready to do if I just let go. 
And don't say yes, Spike, 'cause it's not pretty.

> > > Angelus doesn't need to die. Angel and Angelus need to get their
> > > bleedin' acts together. This is a fuckin' committee, not a
> > > timeshare. 
> > 
> > I wonder.
> 
> Huh? Look, you're both in there. You know that, right? 

Yeah, I do.

> Can't you get on
> the same page?

Angelus and Angel are not the same guy.

> You've got half your energy goin' fighting yourself
> instead of the enemy -- or runnin' away. That can't be right.

Can't be stopped.

> Especially not when the enemy's Angelus. We both know how much he loved
> that smell of fear.

Hear *that* in my head too.  Like right fucking now.

> > > > > Then think about this one. How come Angelus didn't try to kill
> > > > > Wesley when they met?   
> > > >I don't know. 
> 
> Because he liked him? Because he wanted to protect him? Because he
> thought he was cute? Because he wanted to torture him slowly and
> creatively? Can't you *ask?* I mean, I don't exactly know how the curse
> thing works -- I spent most of my time either starin' at a wall or
> runnin' around in a top hat lookin' like a soddin' freak show -- but if
> you remember everything that happened with me, don't you remember
> everything that happened with him? 

Yeah, I remember.

> > > Fucking Darla never needs to be done. But I know what you mean. And
> > > if it ended up with Wesley, it's a hard thing to regret.
> > 
> > Just waiting for her to find out I'm seeing him.  Christ.
> 
> Think she's gonna come after him? Maybe its time for a little
> preventative stakeage.

I see her, she's dead.

A.

***

To: Wesley
From: Spike

> I'll let you know if I find more. But I thought it better to share early
> so you could begin your own research as well.

Absolutely. I'll let you know if I find anything.

> > Yanna met me? Yanna dreamt about me? Don't suppose you know what she
> > looked like, offhand? Having trouble remembering a Watcher from around
> > then, though I suppose she might not have given me her calling card,
> > under the circs.

> I haven't found a reference to her physical appearance yet - she not
> being inclined to include that in her own diaries - but given her
> heritage I would assume blond hair and blue eyes.  I'll let you know if
> I discover otherwise.

Blond hair, blue eyes, in Nazi Germany. Doesn't exactly narrow it down.
But I'll keep thinkin'.

> And yes. Apparently she dreamed that you would kill her someday.  In a
> rather macabre sort of way, I'm interested to find out if I have some
> sort of record here to let me know if you did.  

Does it say *how* she dreamt I would kill her? If I did, I might remember
it.

> It makes as much sense as anything.  You could always ask Angel. He was
> more interested in the details of Faith's incarceration than I was.

I will -- or she will. Buffy keeps changing the subject when Faith and
Angel's names come too close together; whatever's goin' on there, I'm
thinking I might put my foot in it. And I've done quite enough of that for
this week.

> Thank you.  I - I appreciate the offer.  But those who are still alive
> might as well remain so.  Killing them wouldn't provide me with the
> satisfaction that you might suspect.

Well it bloody well would me, pet. And besides, people need to learn they
can't hurt you and get away with it. Fuck, I can't believe Angel let them
live this long. What was he thinking? Or wouldn't you cough up any names
for him either? They're demons, right? And they tie up and torture you, so
I'm guessing they're not the mind-reading, bar owning kind. I should think
that puts them squarely in the okay to slay category by anyone's
standards. C'mon pet, please? I haven't had a good kill in weeks. 

> > [grin] true. But there's quite a lot of skin on the human body. If you
> > alternate spots, you can keep things going for quite a bit longer than
> > four hours. And the most unlikely places become sensitized.

> You'll laugh, but in moments like this I cannot help but think of the
> sort of records I could make of this information.  Perhaps a book to
> accompany the demonic erotica I mentioned earlier? (Joking)

[grin] If you want to come out with the revised edition, its alright by
me. But only if we can pose together for some of the illustrations.

Besides, Angel could tell you more about that stuff than I ever could. As
he constantly reminds me, I didn't have the patience to make a proper job
of it.

> Only problem is that this is very hard to test.  The Council's had
> spotty luck at best with capturing vampires for research purposes.

Do they need to, for this one? Doubt if Buffy's too eager to do them any
favors -- but if they could control their creeping arrogance long enough
to come up with a reasonably portable measuring device, I don't see any
reason why we couldn't take it on patrol with us and test it in the field.
Doubt they'd appreciate suggestions from me, though, unless I were
volunteering to be the first subject.

> > >I'm ready to kill him if I have to. But I"m also cognizant of the
> > >fact that I'm mortal. 
> > 
> > There's that. And -- part of the point of me doin' it, pet, is so you
> > and Buffy don't have to.  Doesn't mean you should wait for me if the
> > opportunity presents itself. But if it doesn't -- let me do the
> > hunting.
> 
> Thank you.  I can promise you that that was probably a weight off of his
> mind.

I hope so, since its a weight on mine. I ... care for Angel. But I care
for Angelus too. Angel may want him dead, but I don't.

> Turn your focus back upon the Scoobies, then - or me.  Earning 
> goodwill with them would go far to get you what you'd like in life,
> would it not?  So even though you would not care one way or another
> about the parents of those babies, you *would* care what Buffy would say
> about it? Or what she might say if she found out you did not assist
> Xander?

Yeah, I would. I did. And if don't worry about what you'd say, it's only
because I know you understand me. You may be sad, but you're not going to
be shocked and surprised, and look at me like the gum on your shoe.

Now that I think about it, there was once, besides that time I need the
scotch to tell you about. I did -- save a little girl once. She reminded
me of Dawn.

> I think really your goal should be to start small and move outwards. 
> Get comfortable with the Scoobies first, then worry about the world.
> After all, it's not as though you haven't plenty of time to try to
> adjust to this. May as well make use of it.

This is true. I just wonder if I'll get there in time for Buffy.

> > >My immediate thought is for you to offer your assistance the next
> > >time Cordelia has a vision. While you're here, of course. If you
> > >stayed long enough she'd be bound to have one. 
> > 
> > I can do that.  
> 
> I'd be glad for the assistance.

I'll help you any time, pet. I would have anyway. Part of the whole liking
you thing. The bit you may not care for is that I'd help you do somethin'
bad with just as much enthusiasm. Maybe a bit more. I'm better at bad.

> > Sorry, pet. Didn't mean to go all terse and cryptic. It's just -- this
> > is complicated. Way more complicated than I thought it would be. Made
> > a bit of a confession, thought I'd get back either disgust or
> > ridicule. Maybe both. Wasn't prepared for simple stubborn denial.
> > Don't know how to get through it. Still don't know why I want to. Not
> > quite ready to talk about this yet. And -- figure its only right he
> > should tell you his side first.
> 
> I respect that.  I'm sorry things have suddenly become strained.  For
> what it may be worth, he's only seemed tense and thoughtful, not angry
> in any way that I can tell.  

No, now he's just lost his bleeding mind! Not in any way you need to worry
about, pet. Just... arrgh. So much for fairness. And for waiting my turn.
I gave it a shot, but, hey, evil over here. 

Pet, if you were Angel, why would you refuse to believe that I like you,
let alone love you, and then decide that you like me? If I looked up to
you as a father all my life, and you're a white hat, and I'm an evil
villain kinda guy? Not to mention that I'm not askin' you to like me, just
to let me be useful? And you used to be sort of bloke who knew what to do
with a bit of embarrassing leverage like that? Does this make, oh, *any
fucking sense at all*? 

I mean, I know *you* like me. I don't understand it, but I'm not about to
argue. But you don't spend your days in a stupor of self-loathing for
bein' like me once upon a time. And you weren't there for my very first
maiming and torturing moments. And you didn't spend 20 years telling me to
shut up pretty much continuously. Angel has finally bloody lost it, is all
I can say.

> out the nuances of the curse.  From what little I know I can say it is a
> very complicated spell.  Discovering such details as why it has the
> happiness clause may take time.

Well, we have time. I can personally guarantee to keep annoying Angel
indefinitely.

> > If you like. If you think it'll help. He did cover the basics, though.
> > Just not a lot about stuff like emotional state. 
> 
> I can help a bit with that, then.  Are there any times in particular you
> are wondering about? Any events he told you of that you'd care for an
> outsider's perspective on?

Well, why he slept with her would be good. And why he helped her eat some
lawyers. And why he tried to set fire to her. Not of them make much sense
on their own, but together they're a whole nummy stew of weird.

> Ah - this makes sense now.  He stalked Drusilla for quite some time as
> well, with similar artistry.  

Yeah. She was quite proud of it. Not sure why.

> One would have to imagine if nothing else Angelus would have been 
> interested in drinking the blood of a Slayer, if he could.  Ironic,
> considering how Angel himself did just that a year later.

Lucky bastard.

> No - it's all right, Spike. I'm not angry - with you or with him. 
> Rather, I'm not in the way that I think you think I am.  I know that
> Angel wasn't saying he was *planning* on becoming Angelus or any such
> thing, just...
> 
> Angel has a difficult time understanding why he's needed.  As my lover,
> as a part of Angel Investigations, everything.  For him to say this to
> you I knew immediately that this was yet another instance of him
> assuming that "Angel" was of little to no use to anyone.  

Huh? Again, I thought he was destiny boy. Seems like the one person who
doesn't ever have to wonder if they're makin' a difference.

> Hence my reaction - it is moments such as that which make me yearn to
> tear my hair out, wondering what it shall take to make him understand
> that he *is* useful, and necessary, and that Angelus is a part of *him*.

Havin' a go at the latter as we speak. Dunno with what success. He *hates*
Angelus. And he doesn't understand why I don't -- or, no, I guess he does
understand that, what he doesn't get is how I could like him and Angelus
both. And I don't understand what's to get.

> > If you have to, you have to. But I really wish you wouldn't. I'm in
> > deep enough hot water with him right now as it is. And -- it doesn't
> > seem so unreasonable to me, pet. If he's willing to die for you, why
> > not that?

> I agree.  Which is to say I understand.  God knows I'd die for him in a
> moment if it were necessary.  It is just... sometimes Angel believes the
> only good he can do *is* dying.  I wish he would understand that he can
> remain on earth and *still* be useful.

[chuckle] Yeah, I can see that might get old. No, honey, you don't have to
die, just pay for the pizza and come to bed.

> Of course.  And please do remember that I care for you.

I do. And I care for you too.

--Spike

***

To: Spike
From: Wesley

> > I'll let you know if I find more. But I thought it better to share
> > early so you could begin your own research as well.
> 
> Absolutely. I'll let you know if I find anything.

Thank you.

> Blond hair, blue eyes, in Nazi Germany. 

I believe she was Scandinavian.  Sophie was Danish.

> Doesn't exactly narrow it down. But I'll keep thinkin'.

Even outside of Nazi Germany it doesn't narrow it down much.  For what it
is worth, though, my impression is that the meeting was very old.  Perhaps
even something in her childhood.  Again - I'm guessing entirely from
phrasing.  

> > And yes. Apparently she dreamed that you would kill her someday.  In a
> > rather macabre sort of way, I'm interested to find out if I have some
> > sort of record here to let me know if you did.  
> 
> Does it say *how* she dreamt I would kill her? If I did, I might
> remember it.

That you would, literally, hunt her down like an animal.  In one dream you
were a shark. Another, an alligator.  I shall go out on a limb and say
that unless you have abilities that you haven't mentioned to me yet, that
was not the method.

She seemed quite captivated by you.  Found you to be charismatic.  
There's a reference to her never before understanding that vampires 
could have feelings, but that based upon what she knew about your 
activities with Drusilla (again based upon tense I'm assuming she'd 
heard something recent) she was given the startling revealation that evil
could be pleasant.  You certainly seemed to enjoy it. 

> I will -- or she will. Buffy keeps changing the subject when Faith and
> Angel's names come too close together; whatever's goin' on there, I'm
> thinking I might put my foot in it. And I've done quite enough of that
> for this week. 

Buffy was more than a little upset when she came to Los Angeles to 
find Angel helping Faith.  I suppose I can sympathize. I would have 
myself were it not for the choice of Angel vs. the Council.  

> > Thank you.  I - I appreciate the offer.  But those who are still alive
> > might as well remain so.  Killing them wouldn't provide me with the
> > satisfaction that you might suspect.
> 
> Well it bloody well would me, pet. And besides, people need to learn
> they can't hurt you and get away with it.

I - I think most know, for whatever reputation we are getting at Angel
Investigations.

> Fuck, I can't believe Angel
> let them live this long. What was he thinking? 

Sometimes death isn't necessary.

> Or wouldn't you cough up
> any names for him either? They're demons, right?

Er - mostly.

> And they tie up and
> torture you, so I'm guessing they're not the mind-reading, bar owning
> kind.

No.  The Host... I was going to say isn't into such things, but I think I
need to amend that to say "non-consentually".  

> I should think that puts them squarely in the okay to slay
> category by anyone's standards. C'mon pet, please? I haven't had a good
> kill in weeks. 

Is this sort of charm inherited from Angel, or did you come into it on
your own?  For what it is worth - since you raised the question of him
letting them live - Angel *does* get like this when he hears of anyone
trying to hurt me. Or Cordy and Gunn.

And... I suspect Angel doesn't press the issue much because he knows I
don't like to talk about my family.

> > You'll laugh, but in moments like this I cannot help but think of the
> > sort of records I could make of this information.  Perhaps a book to
> > accompany the demonic erotica I mentioned earlier? (Joking)
> 
> [grin] If you want to come out with the revised edition, its alright by
> me. But only if we can pose together for some of the illustrations. 

You and Angel? By all means. Pose to your hearts' content.

> Besides, Angel could tell you more about that stuff than I ever could.
> As he constantly reminds me, I didn't have the patience to make a proper
> job of it. 

His patience can be - nicely - maddening.

> > Only problem is that this is very hard to test.  The Council's had
> > spotty luck at best with capturing vampires for research purposes.
> 
> Do they need to, for this one?

Oh yes.  Controlled circumstances.  Otherwise the observations and 
experiments would be completely useless.  The Council doesn't put 
much stock in field research.  Too much room for error.

> Doubt they'd appreciate suggestions from me, though, unless I were
> volunteering to be the first subject. 

True.  You know, that really can't be said enough - Spike, they *will*
dislike the fact that you are around Buffy.  To the point of looking down
upon her and Rupert.  Angel's said he's told you some of what the
Council's done, but speaking as a former member I cannot stress enough how
deeply and innately their hatred of vampires lies.  I do not say this to
make you think that you should leave Buffy - I would obviously be the last
person to find such a thing a good idea - only that since you do ask me
for things you should be cautious about regarding her well-being, that is
where my attentions would lie.  Whatever it is that is making them bite
their tongues so far should be held on to. Or at least plan for what to do
once it goes away, because they *will* make an issue of it.

> > Thank you.  I can promise you that that was probably a weight off of
> > his mind.
> 
> I hope so, since its a weight on mine. I ... care for Angel. But I care
> for Angelus too. Angel may want him dead, but I don't. 

I suppose I can understand that.

> Yeah, I would. I did. And if don't worry about what you'd say, it's only
> because I know you understand me. You may be sad, but you're not going
> to be shocked and surprised, and look at me like the gum on your shoe. 

I'm in love with Angel.  I can't claim to lack understanding about how
difficult it is, or how different.

> Now that I think about it, there was once, besides that time I need the
> scotch to tell you about. I did -- save a little girl once. She reminded
> me of Dawn. 

There is a part of it as well. We help others because in some way it may
help those we do care about.  We see those we care for in the eyes of
others.

> > I'd be glad for the assistance.
> 
> I'll help you any time, pet. I would have anyway. Part of the whole
> liking you thing. The bit you may not care for is that I'd help you do
> somethin' bad with just as much enthusiasm. Maybe a bit more. I'm better
> at bad. 

Having never seen your fighting style I won't promise anything I don't
have enough information about. But for what it is worth - and not to sound
like a broken record - but again, I *am* used to Angel.  On his best day
his method of dealing with a problem is to hit it repeatedly until it does
what he wants it to. He's a vampire. We're fighting demons.  I don't worry
overmuch if he enjoys what he's good at.

> Pet, if you were Angel, why would you refuse to believe that I like you,
> let alone love you, and then decide that you like me? 

If I were Angel? I can tell you this easily - *because* he liked you.  He
always pushes away the people he cares for.  I - I don't exactly know why
I don't fall into this list at the moment, but then again he *did* fire me
and attack me and took nearly losing his soul again to come crawling back
to see me.  

But we're not talking about me.

Angel *always* pushes the people away that he cares for.  It's damn 
near a reflex for him. Comes to him more easily than the ability to use
that hair gel.  

> I mean, I know *you* like me. I don't understand it, but I'm not about
> to argue. But you don't spend your days in a stupor of self-loathing for
> bein' like me once upon a time. And you weren't there for my very first
> maiming and torturing moments. And you didn't spend 20 years telling me
> to shut up pretty much continuously. Angel has finally bloody lost it,
> is all I can say. 

Again - I don't know Angel's mind regarding you in particular, but if I
had to guess... You're his grandchild.  And his famiily still means
something to him.  I suspect that is part of the reason why he is so
guilt-ridden about his actions with Darla - because on top of *everything*
else that his obsession caused, it revealed - so he undoubtedly thinks -
that even Angel still cares about the family Angelus sired.

I mean for Heaven's sake, Spike, look at the plans he's been making. The
fact that he's *encouraging* you and I to have more than just
conversation.  The fact that even he is pondering what the chip might be
doing to you.  You're his family. His grandson.  He cares, and wants
provide for you.

> > I can help a bit with that, then.  Are there any times in particular
> > you are wondering about? Any events he told you of that you'd care for
> > an outsider's perspective on?
> 
> Well, why he slept with her would be good. 

That one might be best gotten from Angel. It was literally the night
before he came back to us and I hadn't seen him prior to that for weeks.

Based upon what he's told me and others, though, it seems as though 
he'd hit a low point even *before* they slept together.  He's only 
mumbled a few terse words on the subject, but the Host has offered the
opinion that Angel really needed to "embrace rock bottom" before
understanding why he needed to begin the "long trek up".

> And why he helped her eat some lawyers. 

He didn't eat any himself.  Instead he trapped them in a basement so that
Darla and Dru could have their way with them.  Angel said he did it
because he "didn't care" what happened to the lawyers. Just couldn't bring
himself to be bothered by it.

Now knowing you as I do, I know that this will not make sense.  
Undoubtedly this is like giving babies to trolls.  However the point is
that Angel *should* have cared.  That the fact that some of the people in
there were not in his favor should not have outweighed his need to protect
the few innocent. Or that because he did not kill Darla and Dru on that
night he facilitated the deaths of countless other innocents.

It is, frankly, the Buffy/Angelus problem.  Because she didn't kill him
early enough, Angelus went on to kill others, whose deaths are now, for
better or worse, on Buffy's conscience.

It is also the problem of going Rogue that we've been talking about. 
Allowing yourself to use your abilities to bring about death for your own
personal amusement - the start of a very slippery path indeed.

> And why he tried to set fire to her. 

I saw Angel only briefly during this time - in which he wouldn't speak
with me or even bother to look in my direction - but my feeling is that he
was going for revenge. He'd - he'd - he'd lost something, in the struggle
to save Darla.  I don't know what.  I only know that the night Dru turned
her, Angel was barely sane, and his body was horribly beaten and covered
in burns.  He was still determined to save Darla and to try to stake her
before she rose, but failed in the attempt.  This was the night, in fact,
that he allowed Darla and Dru to kill the lawyers.

It was not much later that he burned them, and I think his reasoning was
that he was going to get revenge for the fact that the two of them had so
betrayed what he'd given so much for.

That, and frankly he was becoming more like Angelus again.  It wasn't
about justice, or saving anyone. It was about causing pain because it gave
him pleasure.

> > One would have to imagine if nothing else Angelus would have been
> > interested in drinking the blood of a Slayer, if he could.  Ironic,
> > considering how Angel himself did just that a year later.
> 
> Lucky bastard.

You don't know about this?  When Faith poisoned him, and Buffy had to save
his life?

> > Angel has a difficult time understanding why he's needed.  As my
> > lover, as a part of Angel Investigations, everything.  For him to say
> > this to you I knew immediately that this was yet another instance of
> > him assuming that "Angel" was of little to no use to anyone.  
> 
> Huh? Again, I thought he was destiny boy. Seems like the one person who
> doesn't ever have to wonder if they're makin' a difference. 

He is, but he looses faith so easily.  He *wants* his destiny but... he's
still very confused.  I don't say that lightly.  I mean literally it
confuses him to understand how, I suppose, the destiny could want him, let
alone how anyone else would like having him around, given how different he
is. 
 So in a pinch he relies upon his vampire self, because at least *that* he
 
can be confident in. He can know without question that he can take 
more bullets than any of us, take more punishment than any of us, and take
death before any of us need to.

> Havin' a go at the latter as we speak. Dunno with what success. He
> *hates* Angelus. And he doesn't understand why I don't -- or, no, I
> guess he does understand that, what he doesn't get is how I could like
> him and Angelus both. And I don't understand what's to get. 

I... can sympathize.  I don't say that I love Angelus - I'm no fool. I
read what little is known and know to be horrified.  But... I see the
Angelus in him and.... mixed with Angel, perhaps as it should be, it's not
so bad.  Angelus's skills balanced by Angel's courage and morality... it'd
be almost an admirable thing.

> [chuckle] Yeah, I can see that might get old. No, honey, you don't have
> to die, just pay for the pizza and come to bed. 

Dear God you've no idea.  Do you know one day he spent the afternoon
playing with the eletrical wires in the office because we couldn't afford
an eletrician and he figured it'd be better for him to get shocked than
any of us?  The thought that he didn't *Have* to get shocked or that any
of us might not *want* him to was completely alien to him.  Might as well
have been speaking gibberish.

Wesley

***

To: Angel
From: Spike

> Probably could have, if I cared enough to think about it.

Fair enough.

> > > > Besides, what the fuck do you care if I like it?
> > > 
> > > Because maybe I like you.
> > 
> > You *what*? What the hell would you go and do something stupid like
> > that for? You had a perfectly good power imbalance here. Enough
> > material to make me cringe for years. Me beggin' to help you and all. 
> 
> I know.

So then why? Why like me? And why say so?

> > > What's it going to get you? I'm good, I'm bad, I'm broody, I'm not. 
> > > I'm nobody you know or would probably even care to, Spike.  Little
> > > trips down lawyer lane notwithstanding.
> > 
> > Maybe I don't. Maybe I never did. But I do want to. Again -- let me
> > try?
> 
> Maybe.

What can I do to convince you? *Not* just playing the game, Angel. Real
question. Real answer?

> > > Just saying you being evil isn't a factor here. Not to me.
> > 
> > Why do I feel like we've switched roles here? Why *not*? Didn't you
> > try to kill the rest of our, what did Wesley call it, unique family
> > unit for that? Aren't you supposed to be all repulsed and stuff? 
> 
> Probably.

And again, why? Or in this case, then why aren't you?

> 'course Dru and Darla were trying to kill most of Los Angeles *and* turn
> me evil again.  Might have something to do with it.  That on your
> agenda?  If not, then I don't care.

No, of course it's not. Kill -- maybe a few demons, if Wesley will tell me
their names. Darla, if she comes near Wesley. Otherwise, L.A. is safe from
me. Turn you evil again? A, I couldn't. B, I wouldn't, unless you said you
wanted it. You don't. Problem solves itself. And actually, now, not even
if you asked, because I am fucking *obligated* to kill you if you do, and
for reasons that remain opaque to me I really don't want to do that.

> I really don't. No insult, just truth.  Hell - you know what *I'm*
> thinking? Didn't think so.

No. Definitely not. Not a fucking clue in hell. But I never played it
master manipulator knows your secrets. I just hit things.

> > Hurts less that you didn't call for me, you bein' insane with pain at
> > the time and not knowin' I would've come.
> 
> I was. And I didn't.

I know. Now.

> > Hurts pretty much the same
> > that you forgot us, but what the hell. Not like we didn't know you
> > were a wee bit self-absorbed at the best of times.

> What was I supposed to do?  Got my whole fucking life replaying in my
> head, everything hurts - not like I got a *choice* in what I get to
> think about.  Been *easier* if I had a choice.

I know. Not your fault. Still hurts though. You and Dru were the most
important things in my life. I wasn't even important enough to make it
into the instant replay of yours. No insult, just truth. We both know it.

> > That you thought I would
> > have played on your pain -- from Angelus, that's a compliment. 
> 
> Figured you'd at least learned that much by then, all the times I
> fucking beat it into you.

Yeah, and did it ever occur to you there was a *reason* I was such a slow
learner? If I get it, you leave me alone. If I don't, you pay me lots and
lots of personal, painful attention. Doesn't take a genius.

> > That you
> > *never knew* how I felt about you, all that time -- makes me feel a
> > right bloomin' idiot, but I can't find a way to twist it so it comes
> > out your fault, much as I'd like to. And it was probably a blessing,
> > all things considered. 
> 
> Probably.

Not to mention one more thing I have in common with Wesley.

> > Got the feeling you've got a grudge against yourself for how you
> > treated me when we *were* together, but I don't. 

> Got a grudge against everything Angelus did. He fucked me over.  Not
> overly fond of him.

Can't argue with that. But he didn't fuck me over. So
you can just go ahead and take me off the list. Got a feeling its long
enough without.

> > But I did beat you about the head with a poker, steal Dru back, and
> > get you sent to hell, so I figure we're pretty much quits there.
> 
> Hundred years in Hell for stealing my daughter away from you?  Ok.  

For stealing your daughter, I teamed up with your Slayer, beat you about
the head, and took her back. You got the hundred years in Hell for trying
to end the bleedin' world, mate, and I was long gone by then. Just sayin'
its easier to let go of an encounter where you came off worst in the end.

> > What the
> > hell. We're pretty much quits everywhere, as far as I'm concerned.
> > What about you? If you've got a list of greivances *besides* general
> > smartass annoyance, now's the time to ask. 
> 
> No. Thanks.

Welcome. Anytime. Fuck, what a pair of poofs we've turned into. Manners,
yet.

> > And again, why? I said this to Wesley, I never thought I'd have to say
> > it to you. But -- you don't have to like me. I'll still like you. I'll
> > still touch you, if you'll let me. I'll still serve you. I'll still
> > help you. (And no, I did not say either of those last two to Wesley.
> > Don't think he's there yet. Though he did express some interest in
> > chaining me up, one of these days.) Don't talk yourself into this to
> > be fair. Because fairness doesn't mean shit to me. 

> Think it means shit to me? 

Well, yeah. I did, rather. You do go on about doin' the right thing quite
a bit. Thought you might be havin' a go, and I'd just as soon you not
strain yourself on my account. Turns out you're not. Glad to hear it.

 I'm not trying to be fair, I don't give a *shit* 
> about fair as far as this little fucked-up little family is concerned
> 'cause if I *did* Darla and I would be having a LOT more to fight about
> believe you me.  

You mean, besides the part where you want to kill her. You'd want to kill
her more? Repeatedly? Slowly? What the hell happened with you two anyway?
Recently, I mean, I was there for the first time.

> You wanna fuck me, boy?  No problem. But *separate issue*.  We 
> *both* know that.

I figured. But I figured a lot of stuff wrong, lately. Better to check.
And, frankly, apart from a decent fuck, I'm not real clear on what I have
to offer that either one of you would ever want. So when you both start
sayin' you like me, I gotta wonder why you'd bother, and that's the only
think that comes to mind.

  But just so's we're clear - yeah, I *like* smacking you 
> around and making you beg and making you say please and da and 
> promise you'll do anything I tell ya to.  I'm looking *forward* to
> locking you in the hotel for a day while you find out just what your da
> has cooked up for you now that life has changed.

Me too. Believe me.

> But SEPARATE ISSUE.  Separate issue from you, here, saying to me 
> that you'dve *helped* me if you could because NOBODY helped me.  
> Nobody knew I NEEDED help.  Nobody even GUESSED.  And the 
> LAST person I fucking expected this from was YOU 'cause you had 
> EVERY reason to hate me.

I don't know where to start with this, Angel. I didn't know. I didn't
guess. Fuck, if I'd guessed, think I'd have been running around with Dru
playin' ring around the sodding rosy through Europe? I didn't have any
fucking idea. But I should have. I'm sorry. I was so caught up in my
damned ego and what you thought of me that I just assumed when you left
without a word that it meant you didn't want me, you were tired of me, and
I was too proud to beg you to change your mind. A hundred fucking years
you were alone, in pain, becuase I was too proud. And you think *I* have
every reason to hate *you*.

I just hope, if you'd told me, that I'd have had brains enough to shut up
and listen, that I wouldn't have driven you away with makin' fun like
you'd taught me before I realized how bad it was. I probably would have.
Shit, you know what a pain in the ass I was in those days. Hasn't changed
all that much. All I'm sayin' is, if I knew, if I understood, I would have
tried. And now I know. And I want to. I know I can't ever make it up to
you for not bein' there, then. But I can at least try to make it better
now.

And why do you keep sayin' I had every reason to hate you? I've devoted a
fair bit of thinking to that particular topic, luv, at one time or
another, and we've pretty much dealt with my list. What am I missing?

> So no. No I DON'T understand because it makes no fucking SENSE, 
> boy.  You spent your whole life getting the fuck away from the thing
> that this soul has made me become - a pasy-ass fucking HUMAN with
> FEELINGS.  And I don't even get this thing that I *am* let alone
> understand why you of all fucking people would tell me you LOVE it.

No, Angel, I didn't. I did not spend my whole life getting the fuck away
from that. Getting away from being a pansy-ass human, yes. What they
mostly feel is fear, and that keeps them from doin' or feeling much of
anything else. At least it did me. But -- I have always had feelings. For
you. For Dru. For whoever. No morals, maybe -- Wesley and I have been
talking that one over. But plenty of feelings. And I never wanted to get
rid of them. Yeah, sometimes they made me weak. But without them, what the
hell's the point? It'd'be like an eternity playing fucking solitare.

If you really didn't have them back in the day, no wonder you were so
fucking inventive with the tortures. You must have been bored out of your
skull. Anya says that happened with her vengeances too.

> You knew me *then*.  How the FUCK do you care about me now?

Because this fucking god, this brilliant deadly creature that deigned to
keep me around and teach me, turns out to have needed me after all. Turns
out not to despise me after all. Turns out to be capable of love, the flaw
I always thought he was punishing me for. No, there's nothing appealing
about that at all. And you're *still* strong. And you're *still* deadly.
And you're *still* beautiful. Brilliant, on the other hand, is clearly an
on-again, off-again thing.

Seriously, luv, am I missin' somethin' here? 'Cause you really sound like
you can't stand *yourself*. The Angel self. Not the Angelus one.

> > As for the rest - no, of course I fucking wouldn't. Angelus would have
> > taken the first offer, and probably slapped me around a bit for not
> > offering faster and more deferential-like.
> 
> I know exactly what he would've done to you. I know exactly what he'd do
> to you now.  Got it right here, in my head, ready to do if I just let
> go.  And don't say yes, Spike, 'cause it's not pretty.

I won't, then. But I am curious.

> > > > Angelus doesn't need to die. Angel and Angelus need to get their
> > > > bleedin' acts together. This is a fuckin' committee, not a
> > > > timeshare. 
> > > 
> > > I wonder.
> > 
> > Huh? Look, you're both in there. You know that, right? 
> 
> Yeah, I do.
> 
> > Can't you get on
> > the same page?
> 
> Angelus and Angel are not the same guy.

Yeah, I'm aware. Somethin' about the hiring a hit out on him bit gave me
the clue. But you know, you got a lot in common. You got the same
memories. You got the same wardrobe. I'm not sayin' there's a lot of
overlap -- but there is *some* of him in you -- and there's some of you in
him. Can't help thinkin' this might be easier for you if you could accept
that.

> > Especially not when the enemy's Angelus. We both know how much he
> > loved that smell of fear.
> 
> Hear *that* in my head too.  Like right fucking now.

Funny. He used to be more original than that.

> Yeah, I remember.

Well, why then? Or didn't he know either?

> I see her, she's dead.

I know. I don't exactly get what happened, but I got that much. I just
meant, want me to go looking?

--Spike 

***

To: Wesley
From: Spike

> Even outside of Nazi Germany it doesn't narrow it down much.  For what
> it is worth, though, my impression is that the meeting was very old. 
> Perhaps even something in her childhood.  Again - I'm guessing entirely
> from phrasing.  

As a child? That would narrow it down some. And explain why she was still
alive, too.

> That you would, literally, hunt her down like an animal.  In one dream
> you were a shark. Another, an alligator.  I shall go out on a limb and
> say that unless you have abilities that you haven't mentioned to me yet,
> that was not the method.

Nope, no shapeshifting here. Pity. Seemed like such a promising lead.

> She seemed quite captivated by you.  Found you to be charismatic. 
> There's a reference to her never before understanding that vampires
> could have feelings, but that based upon what she knew about your
> activities with Drusilla (again based upon tense I'm assuming she'd
> heard something recent) she was given the startling revealation that
> evil could be pleasant.  You certainly seemed to enjoy it. 

This is bloody fascinating. Who is this girl? I'm starting to doubt I
killed her -- if she'd had sense and time to say "Spike", I'd have asked
how she knew me, and we'd at least have had a little chat before I ate.

> Buffy was more than a little upset when she came to Los Angeles to find
> Angel helping Faith.  I suppose I can sympathize. I would have myself
> were it not for the choice of Angel vs. the Council.  

I can see that. I think I'll let her make the approaches, then.

> > Fuck, I can't believe Angel
> > let them live this long. What was he thinking? 
> 
> Sometimes death isn't necessary.

True. But I figured you'd prefer it to me cutting out their eyes, tongues,
dicks, and thumbs before turning them loose. Cleaner that way.

> > Or wouldn't you cough up
> > any names for him either? They're demons, right?
> 
> Er - mostly.

> > I should think that puts them squarely in the okay to slay
> > category by anyone's standards. C'mon pet, please? I haven't had a
> > good kill in weeks. 

> Is this sort of charm inherited from Angel, or did you come into it on
> your own?  For what it is worth - since you raised the question of him
> letting them live - Angel *does* get like this when he hears of anyone
> trying to hurt me. Or Cordy and Gunn.

Charm? I -- don't know. I hadn't looked at it in quite that light. Raging
ripping fury not being all that popular at parties. Though Angel said it
was cute. It's just -- I protect what's mine, pet. Friends included.

> And... I suspect Angel doesn't press the issue much because he knows I
> don't like to talk about my family.

Ah. Oh. That's the mostly. I withdraw what I said, then, about not
attacking humans. Some things are worth the headache. I won't, without
your permission. But fuck, I want to. *No one* should treat you thst way
and live, let alone people who should have looked out for you.

> > > You'll laugh, but in moments like this I cannot help but think of
> > > the sort of records I could make of this information.  Perhaps a
> > > book to accompany the demonic erotica I mentioned earlier? (Joking)
> > 
> > [grin] If you want to come out with the revised edition, its alright
> > by me. But only if we can pose together for some of the illustrations.
> > 
> 
> You and Angel? By all means. Pose to your hearts' content.

You and me, luv. For some of those appendices on interspecies mating that
would make your book so much superior to the earlier work.

> > Besides, Angel could tell you more about that stuff than I ever could.
> > As he constantly reminds me, I didn't have the patience to make a
> > proper job of it. 
> 
> His patience can be - nicely - maddening.

Good to know its come in useful.

> Oh yes.  Controlled circumstances.  Otherwise the observations and
> experiments would be completely useless.  The Council doesn't put much
> stock in field research.  Too much room for error.

Should get them and the bloody initiative together. They'd have a grand
old time.

> True.  You know, that really can't be said enough - Spike, they *will*
> dislike the fact that you are around Buffy.  To the point of looking
> down upon her and Rupert.  Angel's said he's told you some of what the
> Council's done, but speaking as a former member I cannot stress enough
> how deeply and innately their hatred of vampires lies.  I do not say
> this to make you think that you should leave Buffy - I would obviously
> be the last person to find such a thing a good idea - only that since
> you do ask me for things you should be cautious about regarding her
> well-being, that is where my attentions would lie.  Whatever it is that
> is making them bite their tongues so far should be held on to. Or at
> least plan for what to do once it goes away, because they *will* make an
> issue of it.

I don't *know* what's making them bite their tongues. Or, well, I have a
guess, but its nothing we could hold onto even if we wanted to. What will
happen when they make an issue of it? Surely they'd come after me, not
her? 

> > I hope so, since its a weight on mine. I ... care for Angel. But I
> > care for Angelus too. Angel may want him dead, but I don't. 
> 
> I suppose I can understand that.

I don't even know if I do. He certainly never gave a shit about me. I just
know its true.

> > Yeah, I would. I did. And if don't worry about what you'd say, it's
> > only because I know you understand me. You may be sad, but you're not
> > going to be shocked and surprised, and look at me like the gum on your
> > shoe. 
> 
> I'm in love with Angel.  I can't claim to lack understanding about how
> difficult it is, or how different.

Yeah. I know. But ... Buffy was in love with Angel. It doesn't seem to
help much. I think it's somethnig about you, pet, that makes the
difference.

> > Now that I think about it, there was once, besides that time I need
> > the scotch to tell you about. I did -- save a little girl once. She
> > reminded me of Dawn. 
> 
> There is a part of it as well. We help others because in some way it may
> help those we do care about.  We see those we care for in the eyes of
> others.

That part I'm starting to understand, just a little.

> Having never seen your fighting style I won't promise anything I don't
> have enough information about. But for what it is worth - and not to
> sound like a broken record - but again, I *am* used to Angel.  On his
> best day his method of dealing with a problem is to hit it repeatedly
> until it does what he wants it to. He's a vampire. We're fighting
> demons.  I don't worry overmuch if he enjoys what he's good at.

What better method is there?

> > Pet, if you were Angel, why would you refuse to believe that I like
> > you, let alone love you, and then decide that you like me? 

> If I were Angel? I can tell you this easily - *because* he liked you. 
> He always pushes away the people he cares for.  I - I don't exactly know
> why I don't fall into this list at the moment, but then again he *did*
> fire me and attack me and took nearly losing his soul again to come
> crawling back to see me.  

I think that counts as pushing away, yes. And I think he came back because
you finally got it through that wooden skull of his that he had hurt you
in the process.

> Angel *always* pushes the people away that he cares for.  It's damn near
> a reflex for him. Comes to him more easily than the ability to use that
> hair gel.  

Not that I'm nto grateful, pet, but this just moves the question "why?" up
a level.

> Again - I don't know Angel's mind regarding you in particular, but if I
> had to guess... You're his grandchild.  And his famiily still means
> something to him.  I suspect that is part of the reason why he is so
> guilt-ridden about his actions with Darla - because on top of
> *everything* else that his obsession caused, it revealed - so he
> undoubtedly thinks - that even Angel still cares about the family
> Angelus sired.

And that's bad because...?

> I mean for Heaven's sake, Spike, look at the plans he's been making. The
> fact that he's *encouraging* you and I to have more than just
> conversation.  The fact that even he is pondering what the chip might be
> doing to you.  You're his family. His grandson.  He cares, and wants
> provide for you.

I'm still having trouble believing that. But if he does, then why not let
me care about him?

> He didn't eat any himself.  Instead he trapped them in a basement so
> that Darla and Dru could have their way with them.  Angel said he did it
> because he "didn't care" what happened to the lawyers. Just couldn't
> bring himself to be bothered by it.

Then why shut them in? Why not just wander off? Bloody active apathy, he's
got.

> Now knowing you as I do, I know that this will not make sense.  
> Undoubtedly this is like giving babies to trolls.  However the point is
> that Angel *should* have cared.  That the fact that some of the people
> in there were not in his favor should not have outweighed his need to
> protect the few innocent. Or that because he did not kill Darla and Dru
> on that night he facilitated the deaths of countless other innocents.

Not a lot of sense, no. These were his enemies, right? The ones who keep
trying to turn him? Seems to me, killing them might *stop* the deaths of
all the innocents that would die if they succeeded.

> It is, frankly, the Buffy/Angelus problem.  Because she didn't kill him
> early enough, Angelus went on to kill others, whose deaths are now, for
> better or worse, on Buffy's conscience.

Yeah, I know.

> It is also the problem of going Rogue that we've been talking about. 
> Allowing yourself to use your abilities to bring about death for your
> own personal amusement - the start of a very slippery path indeed.

um, I guess. Speakin' as someone whose already walked that path, doesn't
seem so slippery to me. 

> I saw Angel only briefly during this time - in which he wouldn't speak
> with me or even bother to look in my direction - but my feeling is that
> he was going for revenge. He'd - he'd - he'd lost something, in the
> struggle to save Darla.  I don't know what.  I only know that the night
> Dru turned her, Angel was barely sane, and his body was horribly beaten
> and covered in burns.  He was still determined to save Darla and to try
> to stake her before she rose, but failed in the attempt.  This was the
> night, in fact, that he allowed Darla and Dru to kill the lawyers.

And again, huh? Dru turned her. Why wouldn't he want revenge on Dru, if
anybody?

> It was not much later that he burned them, and I think his reasoning was
> that he was going to get revenge for the fact that the two of them had
> so betrayed what he'd given so much for.

Whatever. Look, I love Angel, but its not like they asked him to do it.
It's not a betrayal when someone else does somethin' they said all along
they were gonna do, just 'cause you hoped to persuade them to do something
else.

> That, and frankly he was becoming more like Angelus again.  It wasn't
> about justice, or saving anyone. It was about causing pain because it
> gave him pleasure.

Now that makes sense.

> > > One would have to imagine if nothing else Angelus would have been
> > > interested in drinking the blood of a Slayer, if he could.  Ironic,
> > > considering how Angel himself did just that a year later.
> > 
> > Lucky bastard.
> 
> You don't know about this?  When Faith poisoned him, and Buffy had to
> save his life?

No, I certainly don't. Do tell. Figures, though, that she wouldn't be in
it for the fun of the thing.

> > Huh? Again, I thought he was destiny boy. Seems like the one person
> > who doesn't ever have to wonder if they're makin' a difference. 
> 
> He is, but he looses faith so easily.  He *wants* his destiny but...
> he's still very confused.  I don't say that lightly.  I mean literally
> it confuses him to understand how, I suppose, the destiny could want
> him, let alone how anyone else would like having him around, given how
> different he is. 
>  So in a pinch he relies upon his vampire self, because at least *that*
>  he 
> can be confident in. He can know without question that he can take more
> bullets than any of us, take more punishment than any of us, and take
> death before any of us need to.

Yeah, I can see that. In fact, I was getting some real strange impressions
from him. I mean, I knew he hated Angelus. But today it almost seemed like
he missed Angelus, and hated Angel. Well, what's left?

> I... can sympathize.  I don't say that I love Angelus - I'm no fool. 

No, that's my job. On both counts.

I read 
> what little is known and know to be horrified.  But... I see the Angelus
> in him and.... mixed with Angel, perhaps as it should be, it's not so
> bad.  Angelus's skills balanced by Angel's courage and morality... it'd
> be almost an admirable thing.

And capacity to feel. Yeah, I think it might, at that.

> > [chuckle] Yeah, I can see that might get old. No, honey, you don't
> > have to die, just pay for the pizza and come to bed. 
> 
> Dear God you've no idea.  Do you know one day he spent the afternoon
> playing with the eletrical wires in the office because we couldn't
> afford an eletrician and he figured it'd be better for him to get
> shocked than any of us?  The thought that he didn't *Have* to get
> shocked or that any of us might not *want* him to was completely alien
> to him.  Might as well have been speaking gibberish.

You're kidding. No, you're not kidding, are you? Fuck, Wesley, you must
have the patience of a saint.

--Spike

***

To: Spike
From: Angel

> So then why?

I don't do power imbalance anymore. Not like that.  People I *don't* care
about - yeah.  People I do...

>  Why like me?

You got your points.

> And why say so?

Because you said you were mine, even with the soul.  'member when I 
said it wasn't guilt? It was gratitude.

> > > Maybe I don't. Maybe I never did. But I do want to. Again -- let me
> > > try?
> > 
> > Maybe.
> 
> What can I do to convince you? *Not* just playing the game, Angel. Real
> question. Real answer? 

Great. Call me on *that* why don't you.  You *do* learn.

K.  Real answer.  You can.  Try, I mean.

> > > Why do I feel like we've switched roles here? Why *not*? Didn't you
> > > try to kill the rest of our, what did Wesley call it, unique family
> > > unit for that? Aren't you supposed to be all repulsed and stuff? 
> > 
> > Probably.
> 
> And again, why? Or in this case, then why aren't you?

'cause you *are* my family.  I *sired* you.  And I'm not believing some
fucking ass story about  you having a soul, but I *do* believe you're at
least interested in behaving yourself. That as far as big bads go we're
probably neck and neck.

> > 'course Dru and Darla were trying to kill most of Los Angeles *and*
> > turn me evil again.  Might have something to do with it.  That on your
> > agenda?  If not, then I don't care.
> 
> No, of course it's not. Kill -- maybe a few demons, if Wesley will tell
> me their names.

What demons?  

> Darla, if she comes near Wesley.

You hold her down, I'll man the stake.

> > I really don't. No insult, just truth.  Hell - you know what *I'm*
> > thinking? Didn't think so.
> 
> No. Definitely not. Not a fucking clue in hell. But I never played it
> master manipulator knows your secrets. I just hit things. 

Pretty much what I do these days too.

> I know. Not your fault. Still hurts though. You and Dru were the most
> important things in my life. I wasn't even important enough to make it
> into the instant replay of yours. No insult, just truth. We both know
> it. 

Probably because you were still alive. Never saw anybody who wasn't 
fully dead.  All the ghosts - dead humans.

> > Got a grudge against everything Angelus did. He fucked me over.  Not
> > overly fond of him.
> 
> Can't argue with that. But he didn't fuck me over. So
> you can just go ahead and take me off the list. Got a feeling its long
> enough without.

Fine.

> You got the hundred years in Hell
> for trying to end the bleedin' world, mate, 

I know. Believe me.  Just asking how you were looking at it.

> > No. Thanks.
> 
> Welcome. Anytime. Fuck, what a pair of poofs we've turned into.
> Manners, yet. 

Quit trying to make me laugh. It's unnatural.

> >  I'm not trying to be fair, I don't give a *shit* 
> > about fair as far as this little fucked-up little family is concerned
> > 'cause if I *did* Darla and I would be having a LOT more to fight
> > about believe you me.  
> 
> You mean, besides the part where you want to kill her. You'd want to
> kill her more? Repeatedly? Slowly? 

Again - we met before?  You *know* I can do more than killing.  
*Especially* to a vampire.

> What the hell happened with you two
> anyway? Recently, I mean, I was there for the first time. 

Tried to save her. She tried to turn me evil.  

Shouldn't be surprised. Got no *right* to be surprised.  But *Fuck*.  Look
of God DAMN GLEE on her face - thought she'd won, thought she'd been
fucking *good* enough to get rid of the soul.  Not fucking likely.  Not by
a long shot.  But still -

I'm not stupid - shut up, Spike - I *know* she's got no interest in the
soul. Christ, her of *all* people.  Didn't even really think I'd gotten
through to her that much.  Just, I dunno - maybe a little.  Maybe just a
*little* to show whoever the fuck gives this much of a shit about my life
what she was to me - how it wasn't *that* fucking bad, maybe in context...
 Sold her boy out.  Like fucking always.

> I figured. But I figured a lot of stuff wrong, lately. Better to check.
> And, frankly, apart from a decent fuck, I'm not real clear on what I
> have to offer that either one of you would ever want. So when you both
> start sayin' you like me, I gotta wonder why you'd bother, and that's
> the only think that comes to mind. 

I could tell you you're not that good, 'cept, being the guy who trained
you...

Like I said. You got your points.

>   But just so's we're clear - yeah, I *like* smacking you 
> > around and making you beg and making you say please and da and 
> > promise you'll do anything I tell ya to.  I'm looking *forward* to
> > locking you in the hotel for a day while you find out just what your
> > da has cooked up for you now that life has changed.
> 
> Me too. Believe me.

Want it even more now, frankly.

> > But SEPARATE ISSUE.  Separate issue from you, here, saying to me that
> > you'dve *helped* me if you could because NOBODY helped me.  Nobody
> > knew I NEEDED help.  Nobody even GUESSED.  And the LAST person I
> > fucking expected this from was YOU 'cause you had EVERY reason to hate
> > me.
> 
> I don't know where to start with this, Angel. I didn't know. I didn't
> guess. Fuck, if I'd guessed, think I'd have been running around with Dru
> playin' ring around the sodding rosy through Europe? 

Would I think that? Yeah. In fact I did.

> I didn't have
> any fucking idea. But I should have.

Why?  All you got is Darla telling you what a fucking monster I am.  Not
like I knew any different.

> I'm sorry. I was so caught up in
> my damned ego and what you thought of me that I just assumed when you
> left without a word that it meant you didn't want me,

Darla kicked me out.  Do you know that?  I mean I thought you did but now
- fuck, you and I don't know shit about each other.

Darla kicked me the FUCK out.  GAVE me the fucking girl in the first god
damn place and then fucking told ME to get the Hell out of her sight when
they cursed me.  Didn't like a vampire with a filthy soul, ya know. 
Couldn't have that around.  

> I just hope, if you'd told me, that I'd have had brains enough to shut
> up and listen, that I wouldn't have driven you away with makin' fun like
> you'd taught me before I realized how bad it was.

Wouldn't'a made a difference, Spike.  Think I could've cared? Or heard ya?
 Can't hate you for it. Wouldn't'a 'preciated it if ya had.

> I probably would
> have. Shit, you know what a pain in the ass I was in those days. Hasn't
> changed all that much.

Funny thought - you, talking to all those ghosts.

Funny in a good way.  In a I like it way.

> And why do you keep sayin' I had every reason to hate you? I've devoted
> a fair bit of thinking to that particular topic, luv, at one time or
> another, and we've pretty much dealt with my list. What am I missing? 

My opinion.  In my opinion you're supposed to hate me. Yeah, you say you
don't. I got that.  Still think you should. But - you being you - I get
it.

> If you really didn't have them back in the day, no wonder you were so
> fucking inventive with the tortures. You must have been bored out of
> your skull. Anya says that happened with her vengeances too. 

Bored?  Sometimes.  But I also liked pain.  It was *fun*. And I was good
at it.

> Because this fucking god, this brilliant deadly creature that deigned to
> keep me around and teach me, turns out to have needed me after all.

Why ya want a god who needs you?  Aren't they supposed to be all-
powerful? 

> Turns out not to despise me after all.

You still bug me. 

Just so's it's understood.

> Turns out to be capable of love,

Yeah.  There's that.  One thing I can't shake.  Love people.  Love Wes.
Love Buffy.  Doesn't go away.

> the flaw I always thought he was punishing me for.

Not why I punished ya.

> No, there's nothing
> appealing about that at all. And you're *still* strong.

Yeah.

> And you're
> *still* deadly.

Yeah.

> And you're *still* beautiful. 

You don't think handsome?

> Brilliant, on the other
> hand, is clearly an on-again, off-again thing. 

Can't resist, can you?

> Seriously, luv, am I missin' somethin' here? 'Cause you really sound
> like you can't stand *yourself*. The Angel self. Not the Angelus one. 

Yeah. There's that.

> > I know exactly what he would've done to you. I know exactly what he'd
> > do to you now.  Got it right here, in my head, ready to do if I just
> > let go.  And don't say yes, Spike, 'cause it's not pretty.
> 
> I won't, then. But I am curious.

You can stay that way.

> Yeah, I'm aware. Somethin' about the hiring a hit out on him bit gave me
> the clue. But you know, you got a lot in common. You got the same
> memories. You got the same wardrobe. I'm not sayin' there's a lot of
> overlap -- but there is *some* of him in you -- and there's some of you
> in him. Can't help thinkin' this might be easier for you if you could
> accept that. 

There's no me in him.  Plenty 'a him in me though.

> > > Especially not when the enemy's Angelus. We both know how much he
> > > loved that smell of fear.
> > 
> > Hear *that* in my head too.  Like right fucking now.
> 
> Funny. He used to be more original than that.

I was paraphrasing.

> > Yeah, I remember.
> 
> Well, why then? Or didn't he know either?

Wes was pretty.

> > I see her, she's dead.
> 
> I know. I don't exactly get what happened, but I got that much. I just
> meant, want me to go looking? 

You can lend a hand.

A.

***

To: Spike
From: Wesley

> > Even outside of Nazi Germany it doesn't narrow it down much.  For what
> > it is worth, though, my impression is that the meeting was very old. 
> > Perhaps even something in her childhood.  Again - I'm guessing
> > entirely from phrasing.  
> 
> As a child? That would narrow it down some. And explain why she was
> still alive, too. 

I'm not certain how old she was. I'm not entirely certain how old she is
as of the date of the passages I'm reading. But if I figure it out I'll
let you know.

> Nope, no shapeshifting here. Pity. Seemed like such a promising lead.

Perhaps you stalked her?  That might translate into a hunting dream. 

Not, I realize, that that would narrow it down much either.

> This is bloody fascinating. Who is this girl? I'm starting to doubt I
> killed her -- if she'd had sense and time to say "Spike", I'd have asked
> how she knew me, and we'd at least have had a little chat before I ate. 

If nothing else I thought you'd find it amusing that lady Watchers have
been writing about you for years.  

I'll keep reading and let you know what I discover.

> > > Fuck, I can't believe Angel
> > > let them live this long. What was he thinking? 
> > 
> > Sometimes death isn't necessary.
> 
> True. But I figured you'd prefer it to me cutting out their eyes,
> tongues, dicks, and thumbs before turning them loose. Cleaner that way. 

Er - yes.

> Charm? I -- don't know. I hadn't looked at it in quite that light.
> Raging ripping fury not being all that popular at parties. Though Angel
> said it was cute. It's just -- I protect what's mine, pet. Friends
> included. 

I think it's the insistance which does it.  And again Angel is like that
as well - quite happy to rip the head off of someone who frowned at
Cordelia in the wrong fashion.  Then just as happy to *insist* that no,
really, he could.

> > And... I suspect Angel doesn't press the issue much because he knows I
> > don't like to talk about my family.
> 
> Ah. Oh. That's the mostly. I withdraw what I said, then, about not
> attacking humans. Some things are worth the headache. I won't, without
> your permission. But fuck, I want to. *No one* should treat you thst way
> and live, let alone people who should have looked out for you. 

It's nothing, really.

> You and me, luv. For some of those appendices on interspecies mating
> that would make your book so much superior to the earlier work. 

Ah. Now you're just flirting.

> I don't *know* what's making them bite their tongues. Or, well, I have a
> guess, but its nothing we could hold onto even if we wanted to. What
> will happen when they make an issue of it? Surely they'd come after me,
> not her? 

Oh they'd most definitely come after you.  The Council has plenty of
resources besides the Slayer to rely upon.  And they had no worry at all
in coming after Angel - who you must remember is not only stronger than
you but a man they still consider to be Angelus as the curse means nothing
to them at all.

For Buffy - that I can't say.  Standard procedure would be to take her
back to England with or without her will.  On the other hand they tried to
kill me.  Not sure if that's because standard procedure has changed, or
because I'm an ex-Watcher while she's the Slayer.

> > I'm in love with Angel.  I can't claim to lack understanding about how
> > difficult it is, or how different.
> 
> Yeah. I know. But ... Buffy was in love with Angel. It doesn't seem to
> help much. I think it's somethnig about you, pet, that makes the
> difference. 

I can't imagine what it is.  I just know Angel and what it's like for him.
 

> > Having never seen your fighting style I won't promise anything I don't
> > have enough information about. But for what it is worth - and not to
> > sound like a broken record - but again, I *am* used to Angel.  On his
> > best day his method of dealing with a problem is to hit it repeatedly
> > until it does what he wants it to. He's a vampire. We're fighting
> > demons.  I don't worry overmuch if he enjoys what he's good at.
> 
> What better method is there?

Frankly, precisely.

> I think that counts as pushing away, yes. And I think he came back
> because you finally got it through that wooden skull of his that he had
> hurt you in the process. 

That would make sense. Especially since he hadn't intended to tell me of
his affections.

> > Again - I don't know Angel's mind regarding you in particular, but if
> > I had to guess... You're his grandchild.  And his famiily still means
> > something to him.  I suspect that is part of the reason why he is so
> > guilt-ridden about his actions with Darla - because on top of
> > *everything* else that his obsession caused, it revealed - so he
> > undoubtedly thinks - that even Angel still cares about the family
> > Angelus sired.
> 
> And that's bad because...?

Because it shows that Angelus isn't as far away as Angel liked to think
and liked everyone else to think.  You have to understand that at the time
Angel was still operating under the assumption that the curse was enough
to keep Angelus at bay.

Me?  He got drugged, he turned.  I had no delusions.  

Cordelia, really, was the one who was most upset.  Or at least 
surprised.  Her and Angel both, I think.

> > I mean for Heaven's sake, Spike, look at the plans he's been making.
> > The fact that he's *encouraging* you and I to have more than just
> > conversation.  The fact that even he is pondering what the chip might
> > be doing to you.  You're his family. His grandson.  He cares, and
> > wants provide for you.
> 
> I'm still having trouble believing that. But if he does, then why not
> let me care about him? 

Er - I'm not sure, I'm afraid.  Perhaps because he's very paternal?  Son
shouldn't be taking care of the father? That sort of thing?  I'm guessing.

> > He didn't eat any himself.  Instead he trapped them in a basement so
> > that Darla and Dru could have their way with them.  Angel said he did
> > it because he "didn't care" what happened to the lawyers. Just
> > couldn't bring himself to be bothered by it.
> 
> Then why shut them in? Why not just wander off? Bloody active apathy,
> he's got.

My opinion - and Gunn's - precisely.  Which is really what was more 
worrysome.  The action obviously showed that Angel *did* care and 
cared enough to do damage, but at the same time Angel himself was 
claiming not to.

Well - it's like our conversation about Buffy.  The words didn't match the
emotions. And unless Angel was prepared to truly face what he'd done and
accept responsibility for it then we *were* in trouble.  Because then it
meant that he was out of control and didn't even see it.

> Not a lot of sense, no. These were his enemies, right? The ones who keep
> trying to turn him? Seems to me, killing them might *stop* the deaths of
> all the innocents that would die if they succeeded. 

Yes, but by this logic Angel should be in a box in Sunnydale as per the
conversation from Hell.  Concrete evil in front of you vs. potential evil
in future.  Concrete evil should win.

> > It is also the problem of going Rogue that we've been talking about. 
> > Allowing yourself to use your abilities to bring about death for your
> > own personal amusement - the start of a very slippery path indeed.
> 
> um, I guess. Speakin' as someone whose already walked that path,
> doesn't seem so slippery to me. 

Goes back to my earlier point about Angel not owning up to his own 
actions. Had he admitted he knew what he was doing - it would have 
been extreme, but comparatively bearable.  But the moment he denied 
his own responsibility he showed that he was losing perspective.

> And again, huh? Dru turned her. Why wouldn't he want revenge on Dru, if
> anybody? 

He did. Dru was one of the ones he burned, was she not?

> Whatever. Look, I love Angel, but its not like they asked him to do it.
> It's not a betrayal when someone else does somethin' they said all along
> they were gonna do, just 'cause you hoped to persuade them to do
> something else. 

I think Angel felt betrayed by everything, not Darla and Dru specifically.
 But again I couldn't say for certain without knowing all he did.  

> > You don't know about this?  When Faith poisoned him, and Buffy had to
> > save his life?
> 
> No, I certainly don't. Do tell. Figures, though, that she wouldn't be in
> it for the fun of the thing. 

Oh my.  Here I thought someone would have told you.

You'll recall the Mayor?  As part of a plan to distract Buffy before his
Ascension he had Faith shoot Angel with a poison-tipped arrow.  The poison
was specifically designed to kill a vampire.

We - even I - did our best to find a cure.... Or more honestly I called
the Council, was told that under *no* circumstances would *any* vampire be
helped by them, reported this to Buffy, tried to get her to focus on the
Mayor again as I'd been told to do, and Buffy quit working for the Council
alltogether... and it was discovered that the only cure for the poison was
the blood of a Slayer.

Buffy attempted to attack Faith in order to use *her* blood, but though
she put Faith in hospital (Slayer gone Rogue *and* in coma - the second
reason I got fired) she did not get the blood that Angel needed.

Buffy, being Buffy, then volunteered herself without, of course, telling
anyone.  Only she and Angel know how she convinced him to drink, but he
did and drank enough that she landed in hospital as well.  Angel
recovered, Buffy recovered, and they both went on to defeat the Mayor at
graduation.

> Yeah, I can see that. In fact, I was getting some real strange
> impressions from him. I mean, I knew he hated Angelus. But today it
> almost seemed like he missed Angelus, and hated Angel. Well, what's
> left? 

I think perhaps even he's not sure.  

> > Dear God you've no idea.  Do you know one day he spent the afternoon
> > playing with the eletrical wires in the office because we couldn't
> > afford an eletrician and he figured it'd be better for him to get
> > shocked than any of us?  The thought that he didn't *Have* to get
> > shocked or that any of us might not *want* him to was completely alien
> > to him.  Might as well have been speaking gibberish.
> 
> You're kidding. No, you're not kidding, are you? Fuck, Wesley, you must
> have the patience of a saint. 

It's a close thing sometimes, I swear.  

Wesley

***

To: Angel
From: Spike

> > So then why?
> 
> I don't do power imbalance anymore. Not like that.  People I *don't*
> care about - yeah.  People I do...

Still gettin' my head around *both* halves of that sentence. Probably
gonna take a while. But... thanks.

> >  Why like me?
> 
> You got your points.

What the fuck are they? Not bein' coy, here. I know I got my points from
my perspective 'cause hey, its me. What's not to like? But from your
perspective, from Wesley's, pretty much a big pile of pain in the ass with
a little oh shit thrown in, as far as I can see.

> > And why say so?
> 
> Because you said you were mine, even with the soul.  'member when I said
> it wasn't guilt? It was gratitude.

No need to be grateful, luv. Not like I made a choice here. It's just the
way it is. Can't say I was always thrilled about it. Though it's startin'
to grow on me.

> > > > Maybe I don't. Maybe I never did. But I do want to. Again -- let
> > > > me try?
> > > 
> > > Maybe.
> > 
> > What can I do to convince you? *Not* just playing the game, Angel.
> > Real question. Real answer? 

> Great. Call me on *that* why don't you.  You *do* learn.

At the risk of spoiling my lovely newfound rep, Angel, that had to be dumb
luck, 'cause I still don't know what I just called you on. Doesn't even
count as a shot in the dark, 'cause so far as I knew, I wasn't shooting.

> K.  Real answer.  You can.  Try, I mean.

Thank you. I will. I am. But I'm new at this. So you got some suggestions,
I wanna hear them.

> 'cause you *are* my family.  I *sired* you.  And I'm not believing some
> fucking ass story about  you having a soul, but I *do* believe you're at
> least interested in behaving yourself. That as far as big bads go we're
> probably neck and neck.

Pretty much. How the mighty have fallen, huh? And frankly, I'm not
believin' the soul thing either. I had my doubts from the beginning, and
now that I know a bit of what it was like for you, there's just no bloody
way that could have happened and me not *notice*. I mean, I'm no Angelus,
but I got a body count. Not one of them corpses felt like sticking around
to piss me off? I'm not buyin' it. Most likely Red just fucked the curse
up when she did it on me. But don't tell her, alright? She'd be upset.

> > No, of course it's not. Kill -- maybe a few demons, if Wesley will
> > tell me their names.
> 
> What demons?  

Anyone who's ever tortured Wesley. He says most of 'em are dead, and he
doesn't want me to kill the rest of 'em. Though he did mention that
they're not all demons -- some are family. So help me, Angel, if I ever
meet that boy's father, I'm gonna strangle him with his own jugular, chip
or no chip.

> > Darla, if she comes near Wesley.
> 
> You hold her down, I'll man the stake.

Works for me.

> > No. Definitely not. Not a fucking clue in hell. But I never played it
> > master manipulator knows your secrets. I just hit things. 
> 
> Pretty much what I do these days too.

There are worse jobs.

> > I know. Not your fault. Still hurts though. You and Dru were the most
> > important things in my life. I wasn't even important enough to make it
> > into the instant replay of yours. No insult, just truth. We both know
> > it. 

> Probably because you were still alive. Never saw anybody who wasn't
> fully dead.  All the ghosts - dead humans.

Probably because they were innocent and we're not, me and Dru and the rest
of the kiddies.

> Quit trying to make me laugh. It's unnatural.

Right, like the rest of this little chat is so bleedin' normal.

> > >  I'm not trying to be fair, I don't give a *shit* 
> > > about fair as far as this little fucked-up little family is
> > > concerned 'cause if I *did* Darla and I would be having a LOT more
> > > to fight about believe you me.  
> > 
> > You mean, besides the part where you want to kill her. You'd want to
> > kill her more? Repeatedly? Slowly? 
> 
> Again - we met before?  You *know* I can do more than killing.  
> *Especially* to a vampire.

Yeah, I know. Just didn't know it was still in the repetoire. 

> > What the hell happened with you two
> > anyway? Recently, I mean, I was there for the first time. 
> 
> Tried to save her. She tried to turn me evil.  

So pretty much a no-score tie, huh?

> Shouldn't be surprised. Got no *right* to be surprised.  But *Fuck*. 
> Look of God DAMN GLEE on her face - thought she'd won, thought she'd
> been fucking *good* enough to get rid of the soul.  Not fucking likely. 
> Not by a long shot.  But still -

Look, Angel, I got no brief for Darla. Never liked the ice bitch before,
sure as hell see no reason to start now. But -- maybe she missed you.
Maybe she wanted you back. It's been known to happen.

> I'm not stupid - shut up, Spike - I *know* she's got no interest in the
> soul. Christ, her of *all* people.  Didn't even really think I'd gotten
> through to her that much.  Just, I dunno - maybe a little.  Maybe just a
> *little* to show whoever the fuck gives this much of a shit about my
> life what she was to me - how it wasn't *that* fucking bad, maybe in
> context...  Sold her boy out.  Like fucking always.

Doesn't follow, luv. If you did get through to her at all, she'd be twice
as ready to break you for it, after. Remember what you said about Buffy --
she made me feel human, that's not something you just forgive? What makes
you think Darla's any different? Seems to me if she was so damned eager to
erase the soul, you probably did get through a little.

> > I figured. But I figured a lot of stuff wrong, lately. Better to
> > check. And, frankly, apart from a decent fuck, I'm not real clear on
> > what I have to offer that either one of you would ever want. So when
> > you both start sayin' you like me, I gotta wonder why you'd bother,
> > and that's the only think that comes to mind. 
> 
> I could tell you you're not that good, 'cept, being the guy who trained
> you...
> 
> Like I said. You got your points.

[grin] I had a good teacher.

> >   But just so's we're clear - yeah, I *like* smacking you 
> > > around and making you beg and making you say please and da and
> > > promise you'll do anything I tell ya to.  I'm looking *forward* to
> > > locking you in the hotel for a day while you find out just what your
> > > da has cooked up for you now that life has changed.
> > 
> > Me too. Believe me.
> 
> Want it even more now, frankly.

Why more? Not that I'm complainin'.

> > > But SEPARATE ISSUE.  Separate issue from you, here, saying to me
> > > that you'dve *helped* me if you could because NOBODY helped me. 
> > > Nobody knew I NEEDED help.  Nobody even GUESSED.  And the LAST
> > > person I fucking expected this from was YOU 'cause you had EVERY
> > > reason to hate me.
> > 
> > I don't know where to start with this, Angel. I didn't know. I didn't
> > guess. Fuck, if I'd guessed, think I'd have been running around with
> > Dru playin' ring around the sodding rosy through Europe? 
> 
> Would I think that? Yeah. In fact I did.

Yeah, I know you did. Can't blame you. But I would have come to you.

> > I didn't have
> > any fucking idea. But I should have.
> 
> Why?  All you got is Darla telling you what a fucking monster I am.  Not
> like I knew any different.

Because I should have *thought*. Yeah, Darla's delicate sensibilities were
so offended. Like that's what the gypsies were really going for. It's a
fucking *curse*. Maybe it's, oh, not so pleasant for you either? Maybe not
a laugh riot? I should have asked. I should have followed you. I should
have at least checked up on you once in a while. What do I care if you're
a monster? I like monsters.

> > I'm sorry. I was so caught up in
> > my damned ego and what you thought of me that I just assumed when you
> > left without a word that it meant you didn't want me,

> Darla kicked me out.  Do you know that?  I mean I thought you did but
> now - fuck, you and I don't know shit about each other.

I knew she did the first time. I just wished you'd taken us with you. But
when you came back in China, and then disappeared... she kicked you out
*again*? She knew you had the soul to begin with, that time. What gives?

> Darla kicked me the FUCK out.  GAVE me the fucking girl in the first god
> damn place and then fucking told ME to get the Hell out of her sight
> when they cursed me.  Didn't like a vampire with a filthy soul, ya know.
>  Couldn't have that around.  

And that's my fucking fault too, you know. She tried to get the gypsies to
take it back. Threatened the guy's family, offered to let them live if he
played nice. Except brilliant William already ate them all up.

> > I just hope, if you'd told me, that I'd have had brains enough to shut
> > up and listen, that I wouldn't have driven you away with makin' fun
> > like you'd taught me before I realized how bad it was.
> 
> Wouldn't'a made a difference, Spike.  Think I could've cared? Or heard
> ya?  Can't hate you for it. Wouldn't'a 'preciated it if ya had.

That doesn't matter. Not in it for appreciation from you, luv. If I were,
I'd've given up long ago. Don't know if you could have cared. Don't know
if you could've heard me. But I should have been there. 

> > I probably would
> > have. Shit, you know what a pain in the ass I was in those days.
> > Hasn't changed all that much.
> 
> Funny thought - you, talking to all those ghosts.
> 
> Funny in a good way.  In a I like it way.

Why not? I'm a sociable kind of bloke. Hell, got enough of them, have a
party. Play bridge. Sing drinkin' songs.

> > And why do you keep sayin' I had every reason to hate you? I've
> > devoted a fair bit of thinking to that particular topic, luv, at one
> > time or another, and we've pretty much dealt with my list. What am I
> > missing? 

> My opinion.  In my opinion you're supposed to hate me. Yeah, you say you
> don't. I got that.  Still think you should. But - you being you - I get
> it.

Good. 'Cause your opinion doesn't mean jack shit. Besides, there happen to
be one or two people whose opinions I respect, and they like you a lot.
I'm gonna take their word for it.

> > If you really didn't have them back in the day, no wonder you were so
> > fucking inventive with the tortures. You must have been bored out of
> > your skull. Anya says that happened with her vengeances too. 
> 
> Bored?  Sometimes.  But I also liked pain.  It was *fun*. And I was good
> at it.

Yeah, it was fun. And yeah, you were good at it. The good old days, huh?
Why do I suddenly feel like we're a couple of balding fat guys who used to
to play for Georgia Tech?

> > Because this fucking god, this brilliant deadly creature that deigned
> > to keep me around and teach me, turns out to have needed me after all.
> 
> Why ya want a god who needs you?  Aren't they supposed to be all-
> powerful? 

I didn't -- don't -- want a god who needs me. I wanted you to stop being a
god, and come down to earth where I could reach you. 

> > Turns out not to despise me after all.
> 
> You still bug me. 
> 
> Just so's it's understood.

Wouldn't have it any other way, luv. Seems like half my fun on this
benighted planet is annoyin' you.

> > Turns out to be capable of love,
> 
> Yeah.  There's that.  One thing I can't shake.  Love people.  Love Wes.
> Love Buffy.  Doesn't go away.

Yeah. Know the feeling. Know what? Kind of glad it doesn't.

> > the flaw I always thought he was punishing me for.
> 
> Not why I punished ya.

No, I'm gettin' that now. But it is why you could hurt me so bad. So same
difference.

> > No, there's nothing
> > appealing about that at all. And you're *still* strong.
> 
> Yeah.
> 
> > And you're
> > *still* deadly.
> 
> Yeah.
> 
> > And you're *still* beautiful. 
> 
> You don't think handsome?

Nah. Handsome is for square jaws types with no conversational skil... you
know, you're right. Handsome's a much better word for you.

> > Brilliant, on the other
> > hand, is clearly an on-again, off-again thing. 
> 
> Can't resist, can you?

Didn't even try.

> > Seriously, luv, am I missin' somethin' here? 'Cause you really sound
> > like you can't stand *yourself*. The Angel self. Not the Angelus one. 
> 
> Yeah. There's that.

Why?!? Angel. I don't mean to get all soppy here. But, hell, if I can
stand you, why can't you?

> > Yeah, I'm aware. Somethin' about the hiring a hit out on him bit gave
> > me the clue. But you know, you got a lot in common. You got the same
> > memories. You got the same wardrobe. I'm not sayin' there's a lot of
> > overlap -- but there is *some* of him in you -- and there's some of
> > you in him. Can't help thinkin' this might be easier for you if you
> > could accept that. 

> There's no me in him.  Plenty 'a him in me though.

There is, though. Just a bit. Just a tiny, tiny taste. What I loved you
for in the first place. Would have worshipped you not matter what, just
for the power and the cruelty and the sheer creativity. But not loved you.

> > Well, why then? Or didn't he know either?
> 
> Wes was pretty.

I figured as much. But he didn't seem to think that was it. An' he was
there, I wasn't, I wasn't gonna argue.

> > > I see her, she's dead.
> > 
> > I know. I don't exactly get what happened, but I got that much. I just
> > meant, want me to go looking? 
> 
> You can lend a hand.

Thanks. I'll do my best.

--Spike

***

To: Spike
From: Angel

> > You got your points.
> 
> What the fuck are they? Not bein' coy, here. I know I got my points from
> my perspective 'cause hey, its me. What's not to like? But from your
> perspective, from Wesley's, pretty much a big pile of pain in the ass
> with a little oh shit thrown in, as far as I can see. 

You've got hidden depths.

> > > What can I do to convince you? *Not* just playing the game, Angel.
> > > Real question. Real answer? 
> 
> > Great. Call me on *that* why don't you.  You *do* learn.
> 
> At the risk of spoiling my lovely newfound rep, Angel, that had to be
> dumb luck, 'cause I still don't know what I just called you on. Doesn't
> even count as a shot in the dark, 'cause so far as I knew, I wasn't
> shooting. 

Promised I wouldn't dick you over with one-word answers on this subject.

> > K.  Real answer.  You can.  Try, I mean.
> 
> Thank you. I will. I am. But I'm new at this. So you got some
> suggestions, I wanna hear them. 

Think *I* know?    I don't get any of this.

> Pretty much. How the mighty have fallen, huh?

Yep.

> And frankly, I'm not
> believin' the soul thing either. I had my doubts from the beginning, and
> now that I know a bit of what it was like for you, there's just no
> bloody way that could have happened and me not *notice*. I mean, I'm no
> Angelus, but I got a body count. Not one of them corpses felt like
> sticking around to piss me off? I'm not buyin' it. Most likely Red just
> fucked the curse up when she did it on me. But don't tell her, alright?
> She'd be upset. 

Not like Willow and I ever talk.  Curse feels ok on my end, though. 
'course it's hard to tell now that things are different.  

> > What demons?  
> 
> Anyone who's ever tortured Wesley. He says most of 'em are dead, and he
> doesn't want me to kill the rest of 'em. 

Took care of them.

> Though he did mention that
> they're not all demons -- some are family. So help me, Angel, if I ever
> meet that boy's father, I'm gonna strangle him with his own jugular,
> chip or no chip. 

Line forms behind me, boyo.  I don't forget a word like "terrorize". 
Especially when I know everything that word can mean.

> > > No. Definitely not. Not a fucking clue in hell. But I never played
> > > it master manipulator knows your secrets. I just hit things. 
> > 
> > Pretty much what I do these days too.
> 
> There are worse jobs.

Plus I like my boss.  That helps.

> > Probably because you were still alive. Never saw anybody who wasn't
> > fully dead.  All the ghosts - dead humans.
> 
> Probably because they were innocent and we're not, me and Dru and the
> rest of the kiddies. 

Maybe.  

> > Quit trying to make me laugh. It's unnatural.
> 
> Right, like the rest of this little chat is so bleedin' normal.

See? Now you're doing it again. And I specifically told ya not to.  

> > Again - we met before?  You *know* I can do more than killing.  
> > *Especially* to a vampire.
> 
> Yeah, I know. Just didn't know it was still in the repetoire. 

Slightly out of practice, doesn't mean I've forgotten.

> > > What the hell happened with you two
> > > anyway? Recently, I mean, I was there for the first time. 
> > 
> > Tried to save her. She tried to turn me evil.  
> 
> So pretty much a no-score tie, huh?

Yeah. Guess so.

> Look, Angel, I got no brief for Darla. Never liked the ice bitch
> before, sure as hell see no reason to start now. But -- maybe she
> missed you. Maybe she wanted you back. It's been known to happen. 

Maybe.

> Doesn't follow, luv. If you did get through to her at all, she'd be
> twice as ready to break you for it, after. Remember what you said about
> Buffy -- she made me feel human, that's not something you just forgive?
> What makes you think Darla's any different? Seems to me if she was so
> damned eager to erase the soul, you probably did get through a little. 

Maybe.

> > >   But just so's we're clear - yeah, I *like* smacking you 
> > > > around and making you beg and making you say please and da and
> > > > promise you'll do anything I tell ya to.  I'm looking *forward* to
> > > > locking you in the hotel for a day while you find out just what
> > > > your da has cooked up for you now that life has changed.
> > > 
> > > Me too. Believe me.
> > 
> > Want it even more now, frankly.
> 
> Why more? Not that I'm complainin'.

Show my appreciation.

> > Why?  All you got is Darla telling you what a fucking monster I am. 
> > Not like I knew any different.
> 
> Because I should have *thought*. Yeah, Darla's delicate sensibilities
> were so offended. Like that's what the gypsies were really going for.
> It's a fucking *curse*. Maybe it's, oh, not so pleasant for you either?
> Maybe not a laugh riot? I should have asked. I should have followed you.
> I should have at least checked up on you once in a while. What do I care
> if you're a monster? I like monsters. 

I'd've done the same thing. I don't blame ya.

> I knew she did the first time. I just wished you'd taken us with you.
> But when you came back in China, and then disappeared... she kicked you
> out *again*? She knew you had the soul to begin with, that time. What
> gives? 

No.  That - I bolted.  Tried to get me to eat a baby and I couldn't do it.
Couldn't cope.  Grabbed the kid and ran.

> > Darla kicked me the FUCK out.  GAVE me the fucking girl in the first
> > god damn place and then fucking told ME to get the Hell out of her
> > sight when they cursed me.  Didn't like a vampire with a filthy soul,
> > ya know.  Couldn't have that around.  
> 
> And that's my fucking fault too, you know. She tried to get the gypsies
> to take it back. 

She did?

> Threatened the guy's family, offered to let them live
> if he played nice. Except brilliant William already ate them all up. 

I know I should be pissed at you or something but - why tell *him*? 
Christ, not like she's never bluffed her way out of shit before.  *Plus*
there's plenty of torture to bring about compliance like that which
*doesn't* need the family.  *Plus* why didn't they fucking curse *you*
while they were at it?  Plus -

Forget it.  Darla's a stone cold bitch and gypsies are fucking assholes.
This is the story of my life.

> > Funny thought - you, talking to all those ghosts.
> 
> Why not? I'm a sociable kind of bloke. Hell, got enough of them, have a
> party. Play bridge. Sing drinkin' songs. 

I could even see this happening.

> Yeah, it was fun. And yeah, you were good at it. The good old days, huh?
> Why do I suddenly feel like we're a couple of balding fat guys who used
> to to play for Georgia Tech? 

Basketball?  I'm starting to learn basketball.

> > Why ya want a god who needs you?  Aren't they supposed to be all-
> > powerful? 
> 
> I didn't -- don't -- want a god who needs me. I wanted you to stop
> being a god, and come down to earth where I could reach you. 

Oh.

> > You still bug me. 
> > 
> > Just so's it's understood.
> 
> Wouldn't have it any other way, luv. Seems like half my fun on this
> benighted planet is annoyin' you. 

Great.

> > Yeah.  There's that.  One thing I can't shake.  Love people.  Love
> > Wes. Love Buffy.  Doesn't go away.
> 
> Yeah. Know the feeling. Know what? Kind of glad it doesn't.

Yeah. Me too.

> > You don't think handsome?
> 
> Nah. Handsome is for square jaws types with no conversational skil...
> you know, you're right. Handsome's a much better word for you. 

Funny. Very funny.

> > > Seriously, luv, am I missin' somethin' here? 'Cause you really sound
> > > like you can't stand *yourself*. The Angel self. Not the Angelus
> > > one. 
> > 
> > Yeah. There's that.
> 
> Why?!? Angel. I don't mean to get all soppy here. But, hell, if I can
> stand you, why can't you? 

It's so different from what I was.  

> > There's no me in him.  Plenty 'a him in me though.
> 
> There is, though. Just a bit. Just a tiny, tiny taste. What I loved you
> for in the first place. Would have worshipped you not matter what, just
> for the power and the cruelty and the sheer creativity. But not loved
> you. 

What do you mean?  What's Angelus got that Angel has?

> > Wes was pretty.
> 
> I figured as much. But he didn't seem to think that was it. An' he was
> there, I wasn't, I wasn't gonna argue. 

I - I wasn't nice to him, though.  Got him right on the raw.  Shit - those
words from *me* of all people too...

But... Angelus wouldn't've killed him.  Played with him, though.

A.

***

To: Wesley
From: Spike

> > As a child? That would narrow it down some. And explain why she was
> > still alive, too. 

> I'm not certain how old she was. I'm not entirely certain how old she is
> as of the date of the passages I'm reading. But if I figure it out I'll
> let you know.

Please do. Lets see, if she was a Watcher in 1940, she must have been at
least, what, 18? 20? 25? what's the minimum age for field work? Was she
one of the runner-up Slayer contenders? I'm tryin' to figure out if I'd
have met her in Scandinavia, or in England, when she was younger.

> Perhaps you stalked her?  That might translate into a hunting dream. 

Distinctly possible but, as you say, that doesn't narrow it down much.

> If nothing else I thought you'd find it amusing that lady Watchers have
> been writing about you for years.  

It's hysterical. Must be my sinister fascination. Can't wait to tell
Buffy: she wasn't best pleased with the one -- Lydia, was it? -- we met.
Wish I'd known at the time, though -- think what a rich and varied set of
experiences I was missin' out on. Stakes as sex toy, and them takin' notes
afterward. No offense, pet, but do *all* Watchers have the vamp kink? Not
that we're not all devastatingly charming and handsome, but it seems a bit
odd. Apart from the sheer pleasure of shattering taboos, of course.

> I'll keep reading and let you know what I discover.

Thanks.

> > Charm? I -- don't know. I hadn't looked at it in quite that light.
> > Raging ripping fury not being all that popular at parties. Though
> > Angel said it was cute. It's just -- I protect what's mine, pet.
> > Friends included. 
> 
> I think it's the insistance which does it.  And again Angel is like that
> as well - quite happy to rip the head off of someone who frowned at
> Cordelia in the wrong fashion.  Then just as happy to *insist* that no,
> really, he could.

Quite right too. But this is charming because? Don't get me wrong, I'm
happy to discover that at least *one* aspect of the vamp social repertoire
translates well. But I must admit this wasn't the one I'd have bet on.

> > > And... I suspect Angel doesn't press the issue much because he knows
> > > I don't like to talk about my family.
> > 
> > Ah. Oh. That's the mostly. I withdraw what I said, then, about not
> > attacking humans. Some things are worth the headache. I won't, without
> > your permission. But fuck, I want to. *No one* should treat you thst
> > way and live, let alone people who should have looked out for you. 
> 
> It's nothing, really.

No it's bloody well not nothing. Do you have the faintest idea how special
you are? Or what a right bleeding idiot someone who saw you every day
would have to have been not to notice and cherish that? Hello, Angel, the
world's densest man, see the skull of solid stone for only sixpence,
managed it. And they *hurt* you instead. They need to die. Slowly. But --
that's what would make *me* feel better. What would help you, pet? I know
you said you don't like to talk about it, but if you ever change your
mind, I promise not to interrupt with death threats more than once a day.

> > You and me, luv. For some of those appendices on interspecies mating
> > that would make your book so much superior to the earlier work. 
> 
> Ah. Now you're just flirting.

Not *just* flirting. Enjoying the mental images, certainly. And wondering
how Angel would draw them. And wondering what poses you prefer.

> > I don't *know* what's making them bite their tongues. Or, well, I have
> > a guess, but its nothing we could hold onto even if we wanted to. What
> > will happen when they make an issue of it? Surely they'd come after
> > me, not her? 
> 
> Oh they'd most definitely come after you.  The Council has plenty of
> resources besides the Slayer to rely upon.  And they had no worry at all
> in coming after Angel - who you must remember is not only stronger than
> you but a man they still consider to be Angelus as the curse means
> nothing to them at all.

They can come after me. That's fine. I don't care about that. Although it
*would* be nice to get the chip out first. But if there's any chance that
they'll come after Buffy, maybe I should leave.

> For Buffy - that I can't say.  Standard procedure would be to take her
> back to England with or without her will.  On the other hand they tried
> to kill me.  Not sure if that's because standard procedure has changed,
> or because I'm an ex-Watcher while she's the Slayer.

Oh, fuck. Got to talk to Giles. Hate talking to Giles. But I don't see an
alternative here. Council's enforced tolerance not likely to last that
much longer, if all goes as planned, and I'd really rather not have to
bust her out of Watcher Central, even for the chance to blow Lydia a kiss.

> I can't imagine what it is.  I just know Angel and what it's like for
> him.  

That, I think, is the difference. She didn't know. He tried to shield her
from knowing his struggles and his darker side, and she cooperated. A
little fantasy world a deux, where his battle was already won. I don't
mean to be snide. Well, I do, but I'm just jealous. It's not that she
*doesn't* know him, exactly. She saw a possibility in him that no one else
did, not even him. And she was right. But then she forgot it was only a
possibility. Then again, maybe she was meant to. Her believin' so stongly
in that pure and noble knight might be all that let him believe it was
even possible. but you ... you love him as he is.

> That would make sense. Especially since he hadn't intended to tell me of
> his affections.

I'm just startin' to get this. Part of the whole low self-esteem bonus
pack for Angel is that he doesn't understand that his leavin' someone's
life could actually hurt anyone -- doesn't think they could really need or
want him around. So he doesn't factor that part in until you show him the
wounds.

> Because it shows that Angelus isn't as far away as Angel liked to think
> and liked everyone else to think.  You have to understand that at the
> time Angel was still operating under the assumption that the curse was
> enough to keep Angelus at bay.

Boy, his capacity for self-delusion is endless, isn't it. Where the fuck
does he think Angelus goes, the Cote d'Azur? He's still here. Where else
would he be?(Oh, and Angel says Angelus didn't kill you because you were
pretty. Thought so.)

> Me?  He got drugged, he turned.  I had no delusions.  

Yes, but you're a lot smarter that he is. We know this.

> > > I mean for Heaven's sake, Spike, look at the plans he's been making.
> > > The fact that he's *encouraging* you and I to have more than just
> > > conversation.  The fact that even he is pondering what the chip
> > > might be doing to you.  You're his family. His grandson.  He cares,
> > > and wants provide for you.
> > 
> > I'm still having trouble believing that. But if he does, then why not
> > let me care about him? 

> Er - I'm not sure, I'm afraid.  Perhaps because he's very paternal?  Son
> shouldn't be taking care of the father? That sort of thing?  I'm
> guessing.

I don't know. But I think we're getting there. Getting somewhere, anyway.
He said I could try.

> > Then why shut them in? Why not just wander off? Bloody active apathy,
> > he's got.
> 
> My opinion - and Gunn's - precisely.  Which is really what was more
> worrysome.  The action obviously showed that Angel *did* care and cared
> enough to do damage, but at the same time Angel himself was claiming not
> to.

> Well - it's like our conversation about Buffy.  The words didn't match
> the emotions. And unless Angel was prepared to truly face what he'd done
> and accept responsibility for it then we *were* in trouble.  Because
> then it meant that he was out of control and didn't even see it.

Yeah I get that. You decide to kill some lawyers who do bad shit, no big
deal, at least to me. Hell, they're lawyers. Practically a public service.
You decide if Darla and Dru are gonna feed anyway, it might as well be on
the guilty, again, no big. But you pretend you didn't decide anything,
you're in never-never land.

> > Not a lot of sense, no. These were his enemies, right? The ones who
> > keep trying to turn him? Seems to me, killing them might *stop* the
> > deaths of all the innocents that would die if they succeeded. 
> 
> Yes, but by this logic Angel should be in a box in Sunnydale as per the
> conversation from Hell.  Concrete evil in front of you vs. potential
> evil in future.  Concrete evil should win.

Okay. Concrete evil was Darla and Dru, right? But *also* the lawyers, if
half I've heard about them is true. So he should have killed all of them
-- or none of them. Potential evil is the people Darla and Dru would kill
if they weren't stopped -- but also the people the lawyers would kill if
*they* weren't stopped. Again, stalemate. I know I'm not very good at the
moral thing here, but I'm having a hard time with this one.

> > And again, huh? Dru turned her. Why wouldn't he want revenge on Dru,
> > if anybody? 
> 
> He did. Dru was one of the ones he burned, was she not?

Yes. But he said he feels sold out by Darla. Again. Dru -- he said he
still loves her, though its different now. Said she's what he made her and
he can't hate her for it. He's gunning for Darla. Dru just has to stay out
of his way. Hope she has the sense to.

> > > You don't know about this?  When Faith poisoned him, and Buffy had
> > > to save his life?
> > 
> > No, I certainly don't. Do tell. Figures, though, that she wouldn't be
> > in it for the fun of the thing. 
> 
> Oh my.  Here I thought someone would have told you.

Buffy's still pretty much the only one who tells me things. And since I'm
guessing she's not too proud of what she tried to do to Faith, makes sense
that she wouldn't mention it. Although I am damned proud of it, myself.
Never knew the Slayer had it in her to be so sensible.

> You'll recall the Mayor?  As part of a plan to distract Buffy before his
> Ascension he had Faith shoot Angel with a poison-tipped arrow.  The
> poison was specifically designed to kill a vampire.
> 
> We - even I - did our best to find a cure.... Or more honestly I called
> the Council, was told that under *no* circumstances would *any* vampire
> be helped by them, reported this to Buffy, tried to get her to focus on
> the Mayor again as I'd been told to do, and Buffy quit working for the
> Council alltogether...

Good for her. Bloodless gits. Not you, of course. But ... kill her
boyfriend and expect her to show up for work the next day with a smile on
her face.

 and it was discovered that the only cure for the 
> poison was the blood of a Slayer.

> Buffy attempted to attack Faith in order to use *her* blood, but though
> she put Faith in hospital (Slayer gone Rogue *and* in coma - the second
> reason I got fired) she did not get the blood that Angel needed.

Huh? But it's easy to get blood from someone in hospital. I've done it
loads of times. They've even got machinery for it nowadays.

> Buffy, being Buffy, then volunteered herself without, of course, telling
> anyone.  Only she and Angel know how she convinced him to drink, but he
> did and drank enough that she landed in hospital as well.  Angel
> recovered, Buffy recovered, and they both went on to defeat the Mayor at
> graduation.

And everyone lived happily ever after. I don't know how hard it would be
to convince him to drink. I mean, I know I'm not soul boy, but you
wouldn't have to ask me twice. Slayer's blood is intoxicating, and the
blood of anyone who loves you is too. Both at once must be a hell of a
cocktail.

> > Yeah, I can see that. In fact, I was getting some real strange
> > impressions from him. I mean, I knew he hated Angelus. But today it
> > almost seemed like he missed Angelus, and hated Angel. Well, what's
> > left? 
> 
> I think perhaps even he's not sure.  

Oh, fuck. Any ideas how to handle this one?

--Spike

P.S. I think the sex thing is alright, though. He doesn't seem to see a
connection -- or a problem. So you can expect resumed begging shortly. -- 

***

To: Spike
From: Wesley

> > I'm not certain how old she was. I'm not entirely certain how old she
> > is as of the date of the passages I'm reading. But if I figure it out
> > I'll let you know.
> 
> Please do. Lets see, if she was a Watcher in 1940, she must have been at
> least, what, 18? 20? 25? what's the minimum age for field work?

The minimum age depends upon the Watcher in question and their 
duties in the field.  A Watcher directly involved with a Slayer is,
ideally, five to ten years older than she is.  Beyond that, however, it
again depends entirely on the person.  Which you can see from the
differences in Rupert's and my own ages, even though we were given the
same assignment.

Although in my case it was hoped my younger age would make Buffy 
and Faith more inclined to listen to me, as well as make me less 
inclined to feel paternally towards them. I know those were factors in the
decision.

>  Was she one of the runner-up Slayer contenders? I'm tryin' to figure
> out if I'd have met her in Scandinavia, or in England, when she was
> younger. 

As far as I can tell she was entirely devoted to being a Watcher.  
Seems she also had visions, and that Sophie died while under her care.
That's the concrete information.  Beyond that I can only find references
of speculation - Yanna's visions caused her to fail during battle, Sophie
became out of control, you yourself killed Sophie (did you?), Yanna ended
up either in hospital or an asylum for the mentally unbalanced... but it's
all guesswork.

More on topic with why I brought Sophie's name up, I found a few more
references to her being conflicted during the war, and even that she may
have killed Nazi soldiers directly, but other than that I can find
nothing.  At this point I fear you'll have to look into Rupert's own texts
for anything more concrete.

> It's hysterical. Must be my sinister fascination. Can't wait to tell
> Buffy: she wasn't best pleased with the one -- Lydia, was it?

Lydia is the one I know of, yes.

> -- we met. Wish I'd known at the time, though -- think what a rich and
> varied set of experiences I was missin' out on. Stakes as sex toy, and
> them takin' notes afterward. No offense, pet, but do *all* Watchers have
> the vamp kink? Not that we're not all devastatingly charming and
> handsome, but it seems a bit odd. Apart from the sheer pleasure of
> shattering taboos, of course. 

I'm starting to think it's more common than the Council lets on. Had you
asked me when I first arrived in Sunnydale I would have said it was out of
the question. However the more I learn the more I think that this may
happen all the time - or at least happen with the right vampire.  You, for
example, being more charismatic than, say, The Master. At least to a
human's point of view.

In fact, this is part of what the Council hinted at to me when they 
stalked me in London.  One of the men - Stuart - made mention of 
understanding how easy it was to put one's faith in a vampire.  I'm 
beginning to wonder if this was a department of the Council that I was
just not privy to - a department devoted to keeping an eye on those
Watchers that became too enamored of the enemy.

> > I think it's the insistance which does it.  And again Angel is like
> > that as well - quite happy to rip the head off of someone who frowned
> > at Cordelia in the wrong fashion.  Then just as happy to *insist* that
> > no, really, he could.
> 
> Quite right too. But this is charming because? Don't get me wrong, I'm
> happy to discover that at least *one* aspect of the vamp social
> repertoire translates well. But I must admit this wasn't the one I'd
> have bet on. 

I'm not sure.  Perhaps because it's an indication that you're trying your
best?  That you're happy to help using whatever unique skills that you
have?

> > It's nothing, really.
> 
> No it's bloody well not nothing. Do you have the faintest idea how
> special you are?

Special?

> Or what a right bleeding idiot someone who saw you every day would have
> to have been not to notice and cherish that? 

Most people manage not to.

> Hello, Angel, the world's densest man, see the skull of solid stone for
> only sixpence, managed it.

That's wonderful phrasing.

> And they *hurt* you instead. They need to die. Slowly. But -- that's
> what would make *me* feel better. What would help you, pet? I know you
> said you don't like to talk about it, but if you ever change your mind,
> I promise not to interrupt with death threats more than once a day. 

I - I appreciate that, Spike, thank you.  And it's all right, really.  My
family and I get along as well as can be expected.

> > Oh they'd most definitely come after you.  The Council has plenty of
> > resources besides the Slayer to rely upon.  And they had no worry at
> > all in coming after Angel - who you must remember is not only stronger
> > than you but a man they still consider to be Angelus as the curse
> > means nothing to them at all.
> 
> They can come after me. That's fine. I don't care about that. Although
> it *would* be nice to get the chip out first. But if there's any chance
> that they'll come after Buffy, maybe I should leave. 

You're welcome to come to Los Angeles. Heaven knows we've 
experience dealing with the Council's operatives before.

> Oh, fuck. Got to talk to Giles. Hate talking to Giles. But I don't see
> an alternative here. Council's enforced tolerance not likely to last
> that much longer, if all goes as planned, and I'd really rather not have
> to bust her out of Watcher Central, even for the chance to blow Lydia a
> kiss. 

It'd be extremely difficult.  The Council has resources both magical and
material at their disposal to keep their headquarters safe.  To a certain
extent Rupert and I might be of assistance in at least knowing what some
of those were, but even still - battle best not fought if possible.  

> > I can't imagine what it is.  I just know Angel and what it's like for
> > him.  
> 
> That, I think, is the difference. She didn't know. He tried to shield
> her from knowing his struggles and his darker side, and she cooperated.
> A little fantasy world a deux, where his battle was already won. I don't
> mean to be snide. 

No. I understand what you're saying.

> Her believin' so stongly in that pure and noble knight might be all that
> let him believe it was even possible. but you ... you love him as he is.

I believe in the pure and noble knight, but I also believe in Angel as a
prat, as a man with a deeply difficult struggle, and as a man who sings
karaoke extremely poorly.

> > That would make sense. Especially since he hadn't intended to tell me
> > of his affections.
> 
> I'm just startin' to get this. Part of the whole low self-esteem bonus
> pack for Angel is that he doesn't understand that his leavin' someone's
> life could actually hurt anyone -- doesn't think they could really need
> or want him around. So he doesn't factor that part in until you show him
> the wounds. 

Yes!  Exactly!

> > Because it shows that Angelus isn't as far away as Angel liked to
> > think and liked everyone else to think.  You have to understand that
> > at the time Angel was still operating under the assumption that the
> > curse was enough to keep Angelus at bay.
> 
> Boy, his capacity for self-delusion is endless, isn't it. Where the fuck
> does he think Angelus goes, the Cote d'Azur? He's still here. Where else
> would he be?

My feeling precisely.  You know, I suspect the greatest danger to Angel is
both his own and everyone else's desire to paint his life entirely in
black and white.  The curse means Angelus is *never* at hand.  *Only* sex
can break the spell.  That sort of thing.  It completely ignores the
reality that life very rarely - well - provides controlled circumstances.

> (Oh, and Angel says Angelus didn't kill you because you were pretty.
> Thought so.) 

I... see.

> > Well - it's like our conversation about Buffy.  The words didn't match
> > the emotions. And unless Angel was prepared to truly face what he'd
> > done and accept responsibility for it then we *were* in trouble. 
> > Because then it meant that he was out of control and didn't even see
> > it.
> 
> Yeah I get that. You decide to kill some lawyers who do bad shit, no big
> deal, at least to me. Hell, they're lawyers. Practically a public
> service. You decide if Darla and Dru are gonna feed anyway, it might as
> well be on the guilty, again, no big. But you pretend you didn't decide
> anything, you're in never-never land. 

Exactly!   Angel was pawning it off as something he had no attachment to
whatsoever.  That was dangerous.  

I suspect that's why he fired us.  He knew that we could - in fact at that
very moment to his face *were* - call him on it and didn't want us around
to remind him. He could maintain the delusion only by himself.

> > Yes, but by this logic Angel should be in a box in Sunnydale as per
> > the conversation from Hell.  Concrete evil in front of you vs.
> > potential evil in future.  Concrete evil should win.
> 
> Okay. Concrete evil was Darla and Dru, right? But *also* the lawyers, if
> half I've heard about them is true. So he should have killed all of them
> -- or none of them. Potential evil is the people Darla and Dru would
> kill if they weren't stopped -- but also the people the lawyers would
> kill if *they* weren't stopped. Again, stalemate. I know I'm not very
> good at the moral thing here, but I'm having a hard time with this one. 

I feel as though I should have a flowchart, or perhaps a write on/wipe off
board.

Dru and Darla - concrete evil.  The potential for them to bring about
Angelus in full force - abstract.  Wolfram & Hart - as a concept, concrete
evil.  The lawyers in the wine cellar - a mixed bunch.  Some good, some
bad, some with the potential of saving (even Lindsey, who now hates Angel
so, had a chance at redemption - even asked Angel for help with it).

The people Darla and Dru would kill - potential evil as you say, but
*definite* potential evil. The people that Wolfram & Hart would cause harm
to - also potential, also known, but still abstract.  We don't honestly
know Wolfram & Hart's full plans.  Nor can we completely wipe out their
organization.  Darla and Dru, however, are two vampires who were, at the
time, right in front of Angel ready to be killed.  Also the deaths in the
wine cellar have by no means stopped the organization, while the deaths of
Darla and Dru would have most definitely stopped them.  

Until such time as Wolfram & Hart decided to bring them back from the
dead, I suppose.

I'm not saying that it isn't a fine line, or not difficult to understand.
Just that the concrete evil of Darla and Dru combined with Angel's
disclaiming of responsibility for the course of action that he took make
this a bad decision - and a dangerous one - on Angel's part.

> > He did. Dru was one of the ones he burned, was she not?
> 
> Yes. But he said he feels sold out by Darla. Again. 

Perhaps because she took a more active role in trying to rid him of the
soul?

> > Oh my.  Here I thought someone would have told you.
> 
> Buffy's still pretty much the only one who tells me things. And since
> I'm guessing she's not too proud of what she tried to do to Faith, makes
> sense that she wouldn't mention it. Although I am damned proud of it,
> myself. Never knew the Slayer had it in her to be so sensible. 

Her intent was to kill Faith.  That may be why she isn't proud of the
actions now.  Faith, though a Slayer, still being human.

> > We - even I - did our best to find a cure.... Or more honestly I
> > called the Council, was told that under *no* circumstances would *any*
> > vampire be helped by them, reported this to Buffy, tried to get her to
> > focus on the Mayor again as I'd been told to do, and Buffy quit
> > working for the Council alltogether...
> 
> Good for her. Bloodless gits. Not you, of course.

Oh no, by all means me of course. I was right there with them.  Mostly.  I
stopped listening to the Council not long after and tried to assist in the
Graduation battle - failed miserably, by the way - but at that moment I
was still working for them.

> But ... kill her boyfriend and expect her to show up for work the next
> day with a smile on her face. 

Not that I am saying I agree, but just to eplain the Council's mindset -
Angel was a vampire.  Period.  The Slayer was asking the Council to save a
vampire.  She *couldn't* have found something more  - words fail. I mean
it's just not done.  She *kills* them. She, at no time, spends any of her
effort or the Council's efforts to *save* them.

On top of it, the Mayor was trying to destroy the town and possibly the
world.  In the grand scheme of things the Council could not spare a moment
to help her boyfriend at the expense of the hundreds upon thousands who
would die if Buffy stopped trying to destroy the Mayor.

> > Buffy attempted to attack Faith in order to use *her* blood, but
> > though she put Faith in hospital (Slayer gone Rogue *and* in coma -
> > the second reason I got fired) she did not get the blood that Angel
> > needed.
> 
> Huh? But it's easy to get blood from someone in hospital. I've done it
> loads of times. They've even got machinery for it nowadays. 

I wasn't there at the time but I believe the sequence of events was that
Buffy stabbed Faith but Faith escaped - then later ended up in hospital. 
Time being of the essense, Buffy then went directly to Angel's to offer
her own blood, rather than waste time attempting to track Faith down.

> > > Yeah, I can see that. In fact, I was getting some real strange
> > > impressions from him. I mean, I knew he hated Angelus. But today it
> > > almost seemed like he missed Angelus, and hated Angel. Well, what's
> > > left? 
> > 
> > I think perhaps even he's not sure.  
> 
> Oh, fuck. Any ideas how to handle this one?

Not at the moment. I'm still working on it. Any help is appreciated.

> P.S. I think the sex thing is alright, though. He doesn't seem to see a
> connection -- or a problem. So you can expect resumed begging shortly. 

Oh good.

Wesley

***

To: Angel
From: Spike

> You've got hidden depths.

You've said that before. Guess I should start to believe it.

> Promised I wouldn't dick you over with one-word answers on this subject.

Oh. Yeah. Forgot about that. Or, well, no I didn't. Just didn't count it,
'cause I said you could.

> > > K.  Real answer.  You can.  Try, I mean.
> > 
> > Thank you. I will. I am. But I'm new at this. So you got some
> > suggestions, I wanna hear them. 
> 
> Think *I* know?    I don't get any of this.

Didn't think so. Just thought something might come to you, wanted you to
know I'd like to hear it if it does.

> Not like Willow and I ever talk.  Curse feels ok on my end, though. 
> 'course it's hard to tell now that things are different.  

I'm sure it is. But Red hadn't done it for years. You know spells. Leave
out a word, everything changes. Or maybe I'm just allergic.

> > > What demons?  
> > 
> > Anyone who's ever tortured Wesley. He says most of 'em are dead, and
> > he doesn't want me to kill the rest of 'em. 
> 
> Took care of them.

That's alright then.

> > Though he did mention that
> > they're not all demons -- some are family. So help me, Angel, if I
> > ever meet that boy's father, I'm gonna strangle him with his own
> > jugular, chip or no chip. 
> 
> Line forms behind me, boyo.  I don't forget a word like "terrorize". 
> Especially when I know everything that word can mean.

Terrorize? He said that? What else did he say? I know he doesn't like to
talk about it, and I don't want to push, but, fuck, Angel.

> Plus I like my boss.  That helps.

Yeah. Me too. Convenient, that.

> > > Quit trying to make me laugh. It's unnatural.
> > 
> > Right, like the rest of this little chat is so bleedin' normal.
> 
> See? Now you're doing it again. And I specifically told ya not to.  

I'm a pain in the ass, remember? What can I say, my unusual obedience fit
must be wearin' off. And its so *helpful* of you to tell me not to -- it
points me in the right direction.

> > Probably because they were innocent and we're not, me and Dru and the
> > rest of the kiddies. 
> 
> Maybe.  

Look, Angel, I got no brief for Darla. Never liked the ice bitch
> > before, sure as hell see no reason to start now. But -- maybe she
> > missed you. Maybe she wanted you back. It's been known to happen. 
> 
> Maybe.

> > Doesn't follow, luv. If you did get through to her at all, she'd be
> > twice as ready to break you for it, after. Remember what you said
> > about Buffy -- she made me feel human, that's not something you just
> > forgive? What makes you think Darla's any different? Seems to me if
> > she was so damned eager to erase the soul, you probably did get
> > through a little. 
> 
> Maybe.

You like "maybe" better than "why"? Think we got even more of them here.
Any chance of gettin' a complete sentence out of you one of these days?
I'm not buggin' you about the promise -- we're not exactly on that subject
any more, and anyway, you've only got one word, just say one word. But --
there's gotta be more goin' on here than that. Maybe but you doubt it? You
hope so? You fear so? You got another idea? You don't give a fuck anymore?
All of the above? Help me out here. Gimme a clue.

> > > >   But just so's we're clear - yeah, I *like* smacking you 
> > > > > around and making you beg and making you say please and da and
> > > > > promise you'll do anything I tell ya to.  I'm looking *forward*
> > > > > to locking you in the hotel for a day while you find out just
> > > > > what your da has cooked up for you now that life has changed.
> > > > 
> > > > Me too. Believe me.
> > > 
> > > Want it even more now, frankly.
> > 
> > Why more? Not that I'm complainin'.
> 
> Show my appreciation.

Angel, I -- thanks. I'll do my best to do the same.

> I'd've done the same thing. I don't blame ya.

I do.

> No.  That - I bolted.  Tried to get me to eat a baby and I couldn't do
> it. Couldn't cope.  Grabbed the kid and ran.

Fair enough. Still wish you'd thought to take us with you, but we've been
through that. What happened to the kid?

> > > Darla kicked me the FUCK out.  GAVE me the fucking girl in the first
> > > god damn place and then fucking told ME to get the Hell out of her
> > > sight when they cursed me.  Didn't like a vampire with a filthy
> > > soul, ya know.  Couldn't have that around.  
> > 
> > And that's my fucking fault too, you know. She tried to get the
> > gypsies to take it back. 
> 
> She did?

Yeah, she did. 

> > Threatened the guy's family, offered to let them live
> > if he played nice. Except brilliant William already ate them all up. 
> 
> I know I should be pissed at you or something but - why tell *him*?  

He saw me. I didn't *know*, Angel. If I had any fucking clue -- but Darla
never saw fit to tell anyone what she had in mind. We attacked the fucking
camp -- revenge, you know? She never said anything about leaving that one
caravan alone. I never had any idea what she had in mind until after, when
she came down on me for fucking it up. Not like I didn't feel bad enough
already.

> Christ, not like she's never bluffed her way out of shit before.  *Plus*
> there's plenty of torture to bring about compliance like that which
> *doesn't* need the family.  *Plus* why didn't they fucking curse *you*
> while they were at it?  Plus -

I don't know, I don't know, and I don't know. They might not have had time
to curse us. After that didn't work -- she told Dru to kill everyone. By
the time we got out of there and she bothered to tell me what the plan had
been in the first place, there was no one left to put the pressure on.

> Forget it.  Darla's a stone cold bitch and gypsies are fucking assholes.
> This is the story of my life.

It's succinct, I'll say that for ya.

> > > Funny thought - you, talking to all those ghosts.
> > 
> > Why not? I'm a sociable kind of bloke. Hell, got enough of them, have
> > a party. Play bridge. Sing drinkin' songs. 
> 
> I could even see this happening.

Yeah, me too. Scared yet?

> > Yeah, it was fun. And yeah, you were good at it. The good old days,
> > huh? Why do I suddenly feel like we're a couple of balding fat guys
> > who used to to play for Georgia Tech? 
> 
> Basketball?  I'm starting to learn basketball.

Really? Why? I was thinking football, of course. The real kind, not this
poncy American shit with the helmets. But I'm flexible.

> > > Why ya want a god who needs you?  Aren't they supposed to be all-
> > > powerful? 
> > 
> > I didn't -- don't -- want a god who needs me. I wanted you to stop
> > being a god, and come down to earth where I could reach you. 
> 
> Oh.

Make more sense now?

> > > You still bug me. 
> > > 
> > > Just so's it's understood.
> > 
> > Wouldn't have it any other way, luv. Seems like half my fun on this
> > benighted planet is annoyin' you. 
> 
> Great.

Hey, doesn't it give you a warm fuzzy glow to know you're making someone
happy?

> > > Yeah.  There's that.  One thing I can't shake.  Love people.  Love
> > > Wes. Love Buffy.  Doesn't go away.
> > 
> > Yeah. Know the feeling. Know what? Kind of glad it doesn't.
> 
> Yeah. Me too.

You really never loved anyone when you were Angelus? What about Darla?

> > > You don't think handsome?
> > 
> > Nah. Handsome is for square jaws types with no conversational skil...
> > you know, you're right. Handsome's a much better word for you. 
> 
> Funny. Very funny.

And again, I try.

> > > > Seriously, luv, am I missin' somethin' here? 'Cause you really
> > > > sound like you can't stand *yourself*. The Angel self. Not the
> > > > Angelus one. 
> > > 
> > > Yeah. There's that.
> > 
> > Why?!? Angel. I don't mean to get all soppy here. But, hell, if I can
> > stand you, why can't you? 
> 
> It's so different from what I was.  

I. um. Yeah. It is. Not gonna kid you there, luv. But
that doesn't make it bad. You've.. got your points too, you know.

> > > There's no me in him.  Plenty 'a him in me though.
> > 
> > There is, though. Just a bit. Just a tiny, tiny taste. What I loved
> > you for in the first place. Would have worshipped you not matter what,
> > just for the power and the cruelty and the sheer creativity. But not
> > loved you. 
> 
> What do you mean?  What's Angelus got that Angel has?

Believe it or not, just a little flash of tenderness in his eyes. He would
never acknowledge it, you could never count on it. But it was there, just
the same. And he's probably ready to kill me now. Sorry, old son. Truth's
truth.

> I - I wasn't nice to him, though.  Got him right on the raw.  Shit -
> those words from *me* of all people too...

What did you say?

> But... Angelus wouldn't've killed him.  Played with him, though.

Still, for Angelus, practically a Hallmark card.

--Spike

***

To: Spike
From: Angel

> > > Thank you. I will. I am. But I'm new at this. So you got some
> > > suggestions, I wanna hear them. 
> > 
> > Think *I* know?    I don't get any of this.
> 
> Didn't think so. Just thought something might come to you, wanted you to
> know I'd like to hear it if it does.

K.

> > Not like Willow and I ever talk.  Curse feels ok on my end, though. 
> > 'course it's hard to tell now that things are different.  
> 
> I'm sure it is. But Red hadn't done it for years. You know spells.
> Leave out a word, everything changes. Or maybe I'm just allergic. 

Wes said something about looking into it?

> > Line forms behind me, boyo.  I don't forget a word like "terrorize". 
> > Especially when I know everything that word can mean.
> 
> Terrorize? He said that? What else did he say? I know he doesn't like to
> talk about it, and I don't want to push, but, fuck, Angel. 

Said? Not much.  One thing Wes gets *real* quiet on.  Which is why I don't
push. Figure if he's shutting up about something he's got good reason. 
Knows I'm here, knows he can tell me all he wants if he wants to. In the
meanwhile I'm happy playing big, broody, ready to kick the *shit* out of
anyone who looks at him funny, family or no, boyfriend.

What *do* I know?

He let slip a couple of comments.  Last year, we're working this case.
Possession.  Long story, spare ya most of it.  Main point being we found
the family but didn't know who it was. Thought maybe it was the dad - met
the guy, got a weird vibe off him.  Give the theory to Wes.  He says
fathers don't have to be possessed to terrorize - there's that word -
their children, they just have to... and he changes the subject. Starts
talking about ways to get demons to show themselves and doesn't touch the
father thing again.

Later we get the kid - the possessed one. Wes is trying the exorcism
(spare ya the fight we had about *that* idea).  You know possession -
starts reading Wes's mind, throwing shit at him.  Wasn't in the room for
most of it, but before I get in there again I hear something about Wes
being locked under a staircase and not being "good enough" for "Daddy". 
Dunno what it was because then *I* change the subject - make sure Wes
doesn't buy any of that "not good enough" crap.  Last we hear of it.

More'n that?  Just me, seeing him get quiet.  Doesn't happen too often. 
But I know him. Know when he's avoiding a subject.  This is the one thing
he doesn't talk about.

No. I'm not happy about it.

> > See? Now you're doing it again. And I specifically told ya not to.  
> 
> I'm a pain in the ass, remember? What can I say, my unusual obedience
> fit must be wearin' off. And its so *helpful* of you to tell me not to
> -- it points me in the right direction. 

Don't know what you're talking about.

> You like "maybe" better than "why"?

Adds variety.

> Think we got even more of them
> here. Any chance of gettin' a complete sentence out of you one of these
> days?

Maybe.

> I'm not buggin' you about the promise -- we're not exactly on
> that subject any more, and anyway, you've only got one word, just say
> one word. But -- there's gotta be more goin' on here than that. Maybe
> but you doubt it? You hope so? You fear so? You got another idea? You
> don't give a fuck anymore? All of the above? Help me out here. Gimme a
> clue. 

I dunno about Darla. You make good points. Dunno if they're the truth or
not. I'm willing to listen.  Hence - maybe.

> > Show my appreciation.
> 
> Angel, I -- thanks. I'll do my best to do the same.

I know you will. You don't get a choice.

> > I'd've done the same thing. I don't blame ya.
> 
> I do.

Get that kind of crap from me?  Guilt, I mean.

> > No.  That - I bolted.  Tried to get me to eat a baby and I couldn't do
> > it. Couldn't cope.  Grabbed the kid and ran.
> 
> Fair enough. Still wish you'd thought to take us with you, but we've
> been through that. What happened to the kid? 

Left it somewhere safe.  Safe as anything was, there.

> > > And that's my fucking fault too, you know. She tried to get the
> > > gypsies to take it back. 
> > 
> > She did?
> 
> Yeah, she did. 

Wonder if they even could?

> He saw me. I didn't *know*, Angel. If I had any fucking clue -- but
> Darla never saw fit to tell anyone what she had in mind. We attacked the
> fucking camp -- revenge, you know? 

Sorry I missed it.

> I don't know, I don't know, and I don't know. They might not have had
> time to curse us. After that didn't work -- she told Dru to kill
> everyone. By the time we got out of there and she bothered to tell me
> what the plan had been in the first place, there was no one left to put
> the pressure on. 

That's our girl. Never one for planning.  You wonder why I was such a shit
about it all the time.

> > Forget it.  Darla's a stone cold bitch and gypsies are fucking
> > assholes. This is the story of my life.
> 
> It's succinct, I'll say that for ya.

247 years summed up in one sentence.  Great.

> > Basketball?  I'm starting to learn basketball.
> 
> Really? Why? 

Gunn's got an interest. He's trying to teach me.  Peace offering kind of a
thing, you know?  Plus it reminds me why I liked him to begin with. Helps
me get past the "saw you looking at my boyfriend just a *little* too
closely" thing.  Not that I've got problems with that. Oh no.

> > > I didn't -- don't -- want a god who needs me. I wanted you to stop
> > > being a god, and come down to earth where I could reach you. 
> > 
> > Oh.
> 
> Make more sense now?

Yes. And no.

> Hey, doesn't it give you a warm fuzzy glow to know you're making
> someone happy? 

Oh yeah. I can feel the soul slipping as we speak.

> You really never loved anyone when you were Angelus? What about Darla?

You would bring that up.

> > It's so different from what I was.  
> 
> I. um. Yeah. It is. Not gonna kid you there, luv.

Know you for a fucking liar if you tried. *I've* met me before. Think
Angelus would spare two seconds on *Angel*? Poncy asshole.

> But
> that doesn't make it bad. You've.. got your points too, you know.

Maybe.  Sometimes I see it. Sometimes I don't.

> > What do you mean?  What's Angelus got that Angel has?
> 
> Believe it or not, just a little flash of tenderness in his eyes. He
> would never acknowledge it, you could never count on it. But it was
> there, just the same. And he's probably ready to kill me now. Sorry, old
> son. Truth's truth. 

You know.... Angelus did like you. In a way.  

> > I - I wasn't nice to him, though.  Got him right on the raw.  Shit -
> > those words from *me* of all people too...
> 
> What did you say?

Christ.  You've got no balls, Wes. You don't have an inferiority complex,
you're just inferior...  you know, everything Angelus is so fucking good
at.  Only thing he didn't pick up on was the gay thing. Probably would
have if Wes hadn't knocked me into the elevator shaft.

> > But... Angelus wouldn't've killed him.  Played with him, though.
> 
> Still, for Angelus, practically a Hallmark card.

Yeah. I wonder about that sometimes.

A.

***

To: Wesley
From: Spike

> The minimum age depends upon the Watcher in question and their 
> duties in the field.  A Watcher directly involved with a Slayer is,
> ideally, five to ten years older than she is.  Beyond that, however, it
> again depends entirely on the person.  Which you can see from the
> differences in Rupert's and my own ages, even though we were given the
> same assignment.

True. Well, figure at least 20, then, and probably somewhat more. Narrows
it down a bit.

> Although in my case it was hoped my younger age would make Buffy 
> and Faith more inclined to listen to me, as well as make me less 
> inclined to feel paternally towards them. I know those were factors in
> the decision.

And I'm assuming the second part, at least, worked as planned. But Buffy's
not much on the listenin', at any age. It's one of the things we have in
common.

> As far as I can tell she was entirely devoted to being a Watcher.  Seems
> she also had visions, and that Sophie died while under her care. That's
> the concrete information.  Beyond that I can only find references of
> speculation - Yanna's visions caused her to fail during battle, Sophie
> became out of control, you yourself killed Sophie (did you?), Yanna
> ended up either in hospital or an asylum for the mentally unbalanced...
> but it's all guesswork.

Yanna had visions? Is this somethin' that might apply to Cordelia? And no,
I didn't kill Sophie. Didn't bag my second Slayer till the seventies, in
New York.

> More on topic with why I brought Sophie's name up, I found a few more
> references to her being conflicted during the war, and even that she may
> have killed Nazi soldiers directly, but other than that I can find
> nothing.  At this point I fear you'll have to look into Rupert's own
> texts for anything more concrete.

I will. Giles will go nuts tryin' to figure out why I got so bookish. And
I'll wrack my brain into the bargain. Though if Yanna had visions of me,
we might never have met at all in person. 

> I'm starting to think it's more common than the Council lets on. Had you
> asked me when I first arrived in Sunnydale I would have said it was out
> of the question. However the more I learn the more I think that this may
> happen all the time - or at least happen with the right vampire.  You,
> for example, being more charismatic than, say, The Master. At least to a
> human's point of view.

From anyone's point of view, by what I hear. Or Darla and Angelus',
anyway. Lumpy old sod livin' down the sewers, not really a party boy.

> In fact, this is part of what the Council hinted at to me when they
> stalked me in London.  One of the men - Stuart - made mention of
> understanding how easy it was to put one's faith in a vampire.  I'm
> beginning to wonder if this was a department of the Council that I was
> just not privy to - a department devoted to keeping an eye on those
> Watchers that became too enamored of the enemy.

[grin] Well, can't blame 'em. Even settin' aside my magnetic charm, we do
put on a hell of a show. Bound to be appealing to a professional voyeur.
And... the watchers' party line is so extreme, anyone who finds out us
vamps have our lighter side is apt to discount the whole thing, go too far
in the other direction and forget we're still evil. But if this Stuart is
still alive, how badly could his trust have been misplaced?

 > > Quite right too. But this is charming because? Don't get me wrong,
 I'm
> > happy to discover that at least *one* aspect of the vamp social
> > repertoire translates well. But I must admit this wasn't the one I'd
> > have bet on. 
> 
> I'm not sure.  Perhaps because it's an indication that you're trying
> your best?  That you're happy to help using whatever unique skills that
> you have?

I certainly wouldn't have put it that way, but I s'pose you're right, at
that.

> > > It's nothing, really.
> > 
> > No it's bloody well not nothing. Do you have the faintest idea how
> > special you are?
> 
> Special?

That would be no, wouldn't it? You're brave, smart as hell, open-minded,
resourceful, and entirely too bleedin' modest. Not to mention brilliant in
bed. And Angel says, a dab hand with a crossbow too. Not to mention --
caring, forgiving, just plain kind. How many people like that do you think
there are in the world? Not bloody many. 

> > Or what a right bleeding idiot someone who saw you every day would
> > have to have been not to notice and cherish that? 
> 
> Most people manage not to.

Most people are morons. More to the point, most people only notice what
you tell them. Which is why I make a point of tellin' them just how strong
and attractive I am at regular intervals.

> > Hello, Angel, the world's densest man, see the skull of solid stone
> > for only sixpence, managed it.
> 
> That's wonderful phrasing.

Thanks, pet. I try.

> > And they *hurt* you instead. They need to die. Slowly. But -- that's
> > what would make *me* feel better. What would help you, pet? I know you
> > said you don't like to talk about it, but if you ever change your
> > mind, I promise not to interrupt with death threats more than once a
> > day. 
> 
> I - I appreciate that, Spike, thank you.  And it's all right, really. 
> My family and I get along as well as can be expected.

Expected by whom? I, for one, expect them to treat you like something
precious. Because you are. But --alright. I'm droppin' it. Fuck knows I've
got wounds I'm not ready to have touched myself.

> > > Oh they'd most definitely come after you.  The Council has plenty of
> > > resources besides the Slayer to rely upon.  And they had no worry at
> > > all in coming after Angel - who you must remember is not only
> > > stronger than you but a man they still consider to be Angelus as the
> > > curse means nothing to them at all.
> > 
> > They can come after me. That's fine. I don't care about that. Although
> > it *would* be nice to get the chip out first. But if there's any
> > chance that they'll come after Buffy, maybe I should leave. 
> 
> You're welcome to come to Los Angeles. Heaven knows we've 
> experience dealing with the Council's operatives before.

Haven't you had enough? Besides, the plan here is *not* to bring the
Council down on anyone else I care about. What I really need is some kind
of leverage -- a threat or a promise, somethin' to enforce this standoff
permanently, or at least buy us some time. Can you think of anything they
want? Or anything they fear?

> > Oh, fuck. Got to talk to Giles. Hate talking to Giles. But I don't see
> > an alternative here. Council's enforced tolerance not likely to last
> > that much longer, if all goes as planned, and I'd really rather not
> > have to bust her out of Watcher Central, even for the chance to blow
> > Lydia a kiss. 

> It'd be extremely difficult.  The Council has resources both magical and
> material at their disposal to keep their headquarters safe.  To a
> certain extent Rupert and I might be of assistance in at least knowing
> what some of those were, but even still - battle best not fought if
> possible.  

Agreed. Completely. But -- they WILL leave her alone, if I have to turn
half of them and set them on the other half.

> > That, I think, is the difference. She didn't know. He tried to shield
> > her from knowing his struggles and his darker side, and she
> > cooperated. A little fantasy world a deux, where his battle was
> > already won. I don't mean to be snide. 
> 
> No. I understand what you're saying.

I'm glad.

> > Her believin' so stongly in that pure and noble knight might be all
> > that let him believe it was even possible. but you ... you love him as
> > he is.
> 
> I believe in the pure and noble knight, but I also believe in Angel as a
> prat, as a man with a deeply difficult struggle, and as a man who sings
> karaoke extremely poorly.

I'm pretty sure Buffy would believe in the bad karaoke too. But probably
not the prat, and certainly not the struggle.

> > I'm just startin' to get this. Part of the whole low self-esteem bonus
> > pack for Angel is that he doesn't understand that his leavin'
> > someone's life could actually hurt anyone -- doesn't think they could
> > really need or want him around. So he doesn't factor that part in
> > until you show him the wounds. 
> 
> Yes!  Exactly!

Never would have believed it, even after you told me your history, if I
hadn't just gone through somethin' similar with him myself. How can he be
such a git?

> > Boy, his capacity for self-delusion is endless, isn't it. Where the
> > fuck does he think Angelus goes, the Cote d'Azur? He's still here.
> > Where else would he be?
> 
> My feeling precisely.  You know, I suspect the greatest danger to Angel
> is both his own and everyone else's desire to paint his life entirely in
> black and white.  The curse means Angelus is *never* at hand.  *Only*
> sex can break the spell.  That sort of thing.  It completely ignores the
> reality that life very rarely - well - provides controlled
> circumstances.

Good point. Any chance of convincing Angel of that? Or Giles, for that
matter?

> > (Oh, and Angel says Angelus didn't kill you because you were pretty.
> > Thought so.) 
> 
> I... see.

What do you see? Did I just upset you? Confuse you? Should I not have
asked? Should I not have told you? What just happened there?

> Exactly!   Angel was pawning it off as something he had no attachment to
> whatsoever.  That was dangerous.  

Was he tryin' to fool himself, do you think? Or only you?

> I suspect that's why he fired us.  He knew that we could - in fact at
> that very moment to his face *were* - call him on it and didn't want us
> around to remind him. He could maintain the delusion only by himself.

Oh, yeah. I can see that.

> I feel as though I should have a flowchart, or perhaps a write on/wipe
> off board.

That academic training dies hard, doesn't it?

> Dru and Darla - concrete evil.  The potential for them to bring about
> Angelus in full force - abstract.  Wolfram & Hart - as a concept,
> concrete evil.  The lawyers in the wine cellar - a mixed bunch.  Some
> good, some bad, some with the potential of saving (even Lindsey, who now
> hates Angel so, had a chance at redemption - even asked Angel for help
> with it).

Good ones are a factor, of course. But as for the rest -- if I have the
potential to be saved, pet, everyone does. Even Darla and Dru. So I don't
see that the lawyers havin' one should be counted any more than the
vampires. You could even say less, since they have souls and chose to be
evil anyway. 

How much of this is just the old Watcher dictum that killing vampires is
always acceptable and killing humans never is? Don't get me wrong, pet --
I'm fine with that. I kill vampires every night, with Buffy. If I see
Darla, I'll stake her myself. If I see Dru -- well, hopefully I won't see
Dru.  But I need to know, if I've got any hope of starting to understand,
what the standards are.

> The people Darla and Dru would kill - potential evil as you say, but
> *definite* potential evil. The people that Wolfram & Hart would cause
> harm to - also potential, also known, but still abstract.  We don't
> honestly know Wolfram & Hart's full plans. 

Do you need to, pet? Seems like their last 25 plans have been evil; I'm
willin' to bet the 26th doesn't involve fluffy bunny rabbits. Except maybe
as ritual sacrifices.

 Nor can we completely wipe 
> out their organization.  Darla and Dru, however, are two vampires who
> were, at the time, right in front of Angel ready to be killed.  Also the
> deaths in the wine cellar have by no means stopped the organization,
> while the deaths of Darla and Dru would have most definitely stopped
> them.  

Again, where's the distinction? The death of the lawyers stopped the evil
of those particular lawyers -- at least, so I assume, unless Darla and Dru
started turning them. The firm continues. The death of Darla and Dru would
stop the evil of Darla and Dru. Vampires, in the aggregate, continue.

> Until such time as Wolfram & Hart decided to bring them back from the
> dead, I suppose.

There is that. It'd be a useful spell to know, really. Any idea why they
brought Darla back as human?

> I'm not saying that it isn't a fine line, or not difficult to
> understand. Just that the concrete evil of Darla and Dru combined with
> Angel's disclaiming of responsibility for the course of action that he
> took make this a bad decision - and a dangerous one - on Angel's part.

Somewhere in here, pet, I think we've crossed the line from me not
understanding to me disagreeing. Not about the responsibility - I'm with
you there. Not about the good lawyers, assuming such a thing is possible.
But about the rest -- I don't think Angel not wanting to kill his family
is so bad, though naturally I've got a bit of a vested interest there. And
I don't think Angel letting assholes who have done nothing but fuck with
him get hoist on their own bloody petard, whatever a petard is, is so bad
either. 

[shrug] I'm evil, of course. But also practical. And he can be a basically
good bloke without settin' out to be a saint. Would you expect an ordinary
guy to kill his own kids to save his enemies?

> > > He did. Dru was one of the ones he burned, was she not?
> > 
> > Yes. But he said he feels sold out by Darla. Again. 
> 
> Perhaps because she took a more active role in trying to rid him of the
> soul?

I think that's it. Along with -- he feels responsible for Dru bein' crazy.
Well, he *is* responsible for Dru bein' crazy. So he doesn't hold her
responsible for her own actions in the same way.

> Her intent was to kill Faith.  That may be why she isn't proud of the
> actions now.  Faith, though a Slayer, still being human.

Yeah. But *not* bein' human, that doesn't seem like quite the holy grail
to me that it seems to be to the rest of you. Kill no one makes sense.
Fucking boring life, but it makes sense. Kill only killers makes sense.
Kill killers if they have fangs but not if they have knives -- frankly,
that doesn't make sense. But hey, whatever. There's a fight, I'm there.

> > Good for her. Bloodless gits. Not you, of course.
> 
> Oh no, by all means me of course. I was right there with them.  Mostly. 
> I stopped listening to the Council not long after and tried to assist in
> the Graduation battle - failed miserably, by the way - but at that
> moment I was still working for them.

Yeah, I know you were still with them then. But I'm not about to start
callin' you hard names. Like you, remember? 

> Not that I am saying I agree, but just to eplain the Council's mindset -
> Angel was a vampire.  Period.  The Slayer was asking the Council to save
> a vampire.  She *couldn't* have found something more  - words fail. I
> mean it's just not done.  She *kills* them. She, at no time, spends any
> of her effort or the Council's efforts to *save* them.

The Council has a serious self-referential problem. Way too much shit has
become unthinkable to them because, well, they say so, and they must be
listened to, because, um, they gave themselves the mandate? I can't
imagine why they think anyone would care. Seems like the Watchers don't do
much for the Slayer. Why should she listen to them? How did the council
get started, anyway?

> On top of it, the Mayor was trying to destroy the town and possibly the
> world.  In the grand scheme of things the Council could not spare a
> moment to help her boyfriend at the expense of the hundreds upon
> thousands who would die if Buffy stopped trying to destroy the Mayor.

This argument, at least, makes sense.

> > Huh? But it's easy to get blood from someone in hospital. I've done it
> > loads of times. They've even got machinery for it nowadays. 
> 
> I wasn't there at the time but I believe the sequence of events was that
> Buffy stabbed Faith but Faith escaped - then later ended up in hospital.
>  Time being of the essense, Buffy then went directly to Angel's to offer
> her own blood, rather than waste time attempting to track Faith down.

Oh, I see.

> > > > Yeah, I can see that. In fact, I was getting some real strange
> > > > impressions from him. I mean, I knew he hated Angelus. But today
> > > > it almost seemed like he missed Angelus, and hated Angel. Well,
> > > > what's left? 
> > > 
> > > I think perhaps even he's not sure.  
> > 
> > Oh, fuck. Any ideas how to handle this one?
> 
> Not at the moment. I'm still working on it. Any help is appreciated.

Doin' my best. Like walkin' through a combination of a swamp and a
minefield. And I don't know how to explain anything. But I'm tryin'.

> > P.S. I think the sex thing is alright, though. He doesn't seem to see
> > a connection -- or a problem. So you can expect resumed begging
> > shortly. 
> 
> Oh good.

Sarcasm, pet?  I needn't, if you'd rather not.

--Spike